I am genuinely seeking answers from Catholicism that make sense :)


#1

My friends,

Please bear with me. I am here with genuine intentions to LEARN more about Catholicism. I am finding it difficult to make ends meet with my understanding of it, and I would truly appreciate your help.

If my questions are answered in a way that makes sense, then it would assist me in my genuine search. I truly respect the Catholic community, and mean no malice against anyone here or anywhere. I will start new threads with new questions, so this thread will hopefully allow me to learn from you, in relation to one specific question :)

Question 1.

How can Jesus, as a Finite Bodied Entity, be considered God Himself, when there are several references in the Bible that God is infinite?

(e.g 1 Kings 8:27. “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!")

(Jeremiah 23:24 "Who can hide in secret places
so that I cannot see them?”
declares the Lord.
“Do not I fill heaven and earth?”
declares the Lord." )

Thankyou my friends :)

Kam


#2

Dear Kam,

I am not a Catholic but please allow me to begin with a simple answer.

Jesus made his claim as being equal with God the Father:
JOH 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
JOH 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
JOH 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Also the apostle Paul makes a clear and logical claim of of Christ being the the embodiment of the Godhead (this is a very strong proof for doctrine of the Trinity):

COL 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
COL 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Jesus of course is also part of the Holy Ghost. I would like to defer to my Catholic friends as I think they will enjoy very much explaining the virgin birth and the conception by the Holy Ghost.

One more item, the virgin birth was prophesied in the old testament and this is certain.
There are Nay Sayers to this but there is a valid proof that comes from an unlikely source.

More later.

Buddyroe,
a servant of Christ


#3

[quote="Kam_Fanaian, post:1, topic:292830"]
My friends,

Please bear with me. I am here with genuine intentions to LEARN more about Catholicism. I am finding it difficult to make ends meet with my understanding of it, and I would truly appreciate your help.

If my questions are answered in a way that makes sense, then it would assist me in my genuine search. I truly respect the Catholic community, and mean no malice against anyone here or anywhere. I will start new threads with new questions, so this thread will hopefully allow me to learn from you, in relation to one specific question :)

Question 1.

How can Jesus, as a Finite Bodied Entity, be considered God Himself, when there are several references in the Bible that God is infinite?

(e.g 1 Kings 8:27. “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!")

(Jeremiah 23:24 "Who can hide in secret places
so that I cannot see them?”
declares the Lord.
“Do not I fill heaven and earth?”
declares the Lord." )

Thankyou my friends :)

Kam

[/quote]

Well, let me put it this way: Jesus' godhood didn't become human, but rather Jesus' godhood inseparably united itself to a body as one person. Look up the term "hypostatic union" if you want to learn more. It can get complex, but I think my explanation is the simplest I can get without accidentally saying something heretical.


#4

Hello Kam Fanaian;

How can Jesus, as a Finite Bodied Entity, be considered God Himself, when there are several references in the Bible that God is infinite?

Ice is ice, but it is still water - finite is just a small period of time within 'in-finite'

With God all things are possible, we just don't understand.

Blessings

Eric


#5

Did you never read the following passages?
Matthew 19:[26] But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Mark 10:[27] Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”


#6

[quote="Buddyroe, post:2, topic:292830"]

.

Jesus made his claim as being equal with God the Father:
JOH 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
JOH 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
JOH 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

[/quote]

Hi Buddyroe :)

Thankyou for taking the time to respond my friend.

I have partially quoted your post above in regards to the verses you quoted and you equating those verses to Jesus being equal to God.

From what I understand from these verses from John 14, one can equate Jesus to a Teacher (I know He is much more than that!!) (but JUST from these verses) who knows the Headmaster of the school intimately, to such a degree that one cannot often discern the difference between the Teachers knowledge and the Headmasters knowledge. It most certainly does not equate the Teacher and the Headmaster.

I hope my concerns with that equation is well received, and not seen as heretical. I am genuinely seeking to learn :)

Kam


#7

[quote="WoundedIcon, post:3, topic:292830"]
Well, let me put it this way: Jesus' godhood didn't become human, but rather Jesus' godhood inseparably united itself to a body as one person. Look up the term "hypostatic union" if you want to learn more. It can get complex, but I think my explanation is the simplest I can get without accidentally saying something heretical.

[/quote]

Thankyou, I will study hypostatic union :)

God bless
Kam


#8

Mark 14

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said to him: Art thou the Christ the Son of the blessed God?
62 And Jesus said to him: I am. And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 22

41 And the Pharisees being gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying: What think you of Christ? whose son is he? They say to him: David’s.
43 He saith to them: How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying:
44 The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

John 8

23 And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world.
24 Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin.
25 They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you.

John 5

16 Therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work.
18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.
19 Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do anything of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P16.HTM

211 The divine name, “I Am” or “He Is”, expresses God’s faithfulness: despite the faithlessness of men’s sin and the punishment it deserves, he keeps “steadfast love for thousands”.21 By going so far as to give up his own Son for us, God reveals that he is “rich in mercy”.22 By giving his life to free us from sin, Jesus reveals that he himself bears the divine name: "When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will realize that “I AM”."23

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1G.HTM

444 The Gospels report that at two solemn moments, the Baptism and the Transfiguration of Christ, the voice of the Father designates Jesus his “beloved Son”.53 Jesus calls himself the “only Son of God”, and by this title affirms his eternal pre-existence.54 He asks for faith in “the name of the only Son of God”.55 In the centurion’s exclamation before the crucified Christ, “Truly this man was the Son of God”,56 that Christian confession is already heard. Only in the Paschal mystery can the believer give the title “Son of God” its full meaning.


#9

this might help.

Encyclical Letter
Dominum et Vivificantem (The Lord and Giver of Life)
Of Supreme Pontiff
John Paul II


#10

[quote="Kam_Fanaian, post:1, topic:292830"]
....How can Jesus, as a Finite Bodied Entity, be considered God Himself, when there are several references in the Bible that God is infinite?.....
Kam

[/quote]

Hey Kam,
I don't know if this will help, but Rosalind Moss, a convert from Judaism, said that at first she did not understand how a man could be God.

Then she learned that Christ was God become Man, not the other way around.

Christ was infinite *before *He was incarnate ("finite").

HTH!


#11

[quote="Kam_Fanaian, post:1, topic:292830"]
My friends,

Please bear with me. I am here with genuine intentions to LEARN more about Catholicism. I am finding it difficult to make ends meet with my understanding of it, and I would truly appreciate your help.

If my questions are answered in a way that makes sense, then it would assist me in my genuine search. I truly respect the Catholic community, and mean no malice against anyone here or anywhere. I will start new threads with new questions, so this thread will hopefully allow me to learn from you, in relation to one specific question :)

[/quote]

OK - I'll give it a shot. :p

Question 1.

How can Jesus, as a Finite Bodied Entity, be considered God Himself, when there are several references in the Bible that God is infinite?

(e.g 1 Kings 8:27. “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!")

(Jeremiah 23:24 "Who can hide in secret places
so that I cannot see them?”
declares the Lord.
“Do not I fill heaven and earth?”
declares the Lord." )

Thankyou my friends :)

Kam
It really is not a matter of Jesus being "considered" to be God - as though this is nothing more than a consensus of opinion - it is a fact as described in Scripture and as consistently taught even from the time when the Apostles themselves still walked among us.

In the Gospel of John it is written " I and the Father are one." (John 10:30).

Also written in John is:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

Of course what you ask is "How" this can be....To that w must answer - we do not know the mechanics or the physics of it. It just is. But HOW he can be considered God is simple...Because it is true...and we believe it.

Peace
James


#12

Hi, Kam Fanaian,

One of the problems with all analogies is that they 'limp'... some, unfortunately, 'limp' more than others... :D The analogy of the Teacher and Headmaster can carry us some of the way ... you have identified seperate persons here - and in the Trinity, Each Person Is Seperate - there is no confusion of Persons. The Father is distinct from the Son is distinct from the Holy Spirit.

But, as I understand it, the 'Headmaster' would be the superior of the 'Teacher' - and that is not an appropriate example for the Trinity - none of the Persons is subordinate to the Other.

The Trinity is the most profound Divine Mystery of the Catholic Faith - it deals with God Himself. The human mind can not even begin to conceive how God relates, knows and loves Himself. But, we do have some items that can help us appreciate this Divine Mystery although we can not understand it. Here is a link: catholic.com/quickquestions/can-you-explain-the-trinity-in-plain-language

I hope this helps.

God bless

[quote="Kam_Fanaian, post:6, topic:292830"]
Hi Buddyroe :)

Thankyou for taking the time to respond my friend.

I have partially quoted your post above in regards to the verses you quoted and you equating those verses to Jesus being equal to God.

From what I understand from these verses from John 14, one can equate Jesus to a Teacher (I know He is much more than that!!) (but JUST from these verses) who knows the Headmaster of the school intimately, to such a degree that one cannot often discern the difference between the Teachers knowledge and the Headmasters knowledge. It most certainly does not equate the Teacher and the Headmaster.

I hope my concerns with that equation is well received, and not seen as heretical. I am genuinely seeking to learn :)

Kam

[/quote]


#13

Kam,

We have had our communications in these fora, because there are some things too deep to understand, or to put into human terms, I now defer.

My advice for what it is worth, is to embrace the holy scriptures of the Judeo-Christian faith, believe in the salvation of Jesus Christ, receive the Holy Spirit through this salvation, and then ask for Divine Wisdom, all the while remembering Ps.131:

**O Lord, my heart is not lifted up;
my eyes are not raised too high;
I do not occupy myself with things
too great and too marvelous for me.
But I have calmed and quieted my soul,
like a weaned child with its mother;
like a weaned child is my soul within me.

O Israel, hope in the Lord
from this time forth and forevermore.**

God’s peace

Micah


#14

[quote="Church_Militant, post:5, topic:292830"]
Did you never read the following passages?
Matthew 19:[26] But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Mark 10:[27] Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

[/quote]

Thankyou my friend,

Yes these passages give a clear distinction between God and man, but how do they equate God with Jesus?

Your understanding would be much appreciated :)

Kam


#15

Thankyou so much Micah. That’s a truly beautiful prayer, and I give you my word it will be recited with my other prayers tonight :slight_smile:

Kam


#16

Man is different from the animals in several ways.
God created Man in his own Image and Likeness.
God "Breathed life" into man.
in Hebrew Breath and Soul are the same word.
Our Soul is in essence totally different from the animal, vegetable or inanimate souls that exist in the living or dead objects around us. Our souls come directly from God's own breath.

Jesus is the Word of God. His Breath, his Soul In Action.

it was through the Word of God that the world was made

And the Word was made Flesh and Lived among us.

Jesus existed as God from before Creation. Before time. (science tells us that TIme is a dimension of our universe. it does have a begininig (at the big bang) and an end (At the big crunch or the final evaporation of all energy - the big freeze). science confirms this.

it is not that Jesus the Man is considered to be God. it is that God took on Human Form. His infinity was wrapped in the Tent of a Human Body. But you and I are more than our Bodies. our Person is in reality much more than that. it is our Soul. Our body is just a tent in which our Soul dwells for a while. - before we face the lord and go to live for eternity with him, or reject him and spend eternity outside His Presence.

So God. in His Person of Jesus - the "Word of God" entered into human form. but that human form was created in the Image and Likeness of God... It was intended from before time began that this would be possible for God to do.

Jesus entered the world in the normal way. through the Womb of his Blessed Mother (although his Conception was by the action of the Holy spirit not a Human Father).

Jesus suffered a horrendous death. Death of the Body - He was Crucified - "Death" of the soul - He went down to the place of the Dead - Sheol - (this is not the hell of damnation - but the underworld where all the dead awaited his Ressurection so they could be Judged.)

He was. He is Fully Human. He has a human Soul - but it is also a Divine Soul. it is the fullness of the Godhead (the Father and I are One)

He Rose again from the Dead on the Third Day. He was seen by many eyewitnesses.

He ascended into Heaven, both his Body and Soul. his Whole divinity.

I don't want to be coy or dismissive in saying this. but the incarnation is a Mystery. It si beyond the mere Human intellect to have a full understanding of it. we can but perceive it dimly.

The above is my best attempt to describe it. - it is not intended to be authoritative. - others have provided links to more authoritative sources but sometimes it can help to hear an idea expressed in other words.


#17

Thankyou JM3

I studied all of the verses you have so kindly sourced for my study. However, sitting on the right side of the Lord, clearly indicates that you are not the Lord Himself. If I was to sit on the right side of my own father, it does not make me the same personage of my father.

I cannot see how being call the Son of God, Jesus was actually God Himself in any of these verses. Maybe you could help me if I have misread any specific verse?

Kam


#18

=Kam Fanaian;9566083]My friends,

Please bear with me. I am here with genuine intentions to LEARN more about Catholicism. I am finding it difficult to make ends meet with my understanding of it, and I would truly appreciate your help.

If my questions are answered in a way that makes sense, then it would assist me in my genuine search. I truly respect the Catholic community, and mean no malice against anyone here or anywhere. I will start new threads with new questions, so this thread will hopefully allow me to learn from you, in relation to one specific question :)

Question 1.

How can Jesus, as a Finite Bodied Entity, be considered God Himself, when there are several references in the Bible that God is infinite?

God is "One" BUT that One God makes Himself present to us as a 'Trinity of Persons"

Father = Creator
Son =Redeemer /Savior [Jesus] who IS has BOTh a complete and perfect Human Natue AND a Perfect and Complete Devine Nature
Holy Spirit= Sactifyer

Jesus as God [the Son] is part of the One Infinite Godhood /the Alpha and Omega

Each has references in BOTH the OT and the NT:)

(e.g 1 Kings 8:27. “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!")

Thankyou my friends :)

Kam

Please look for the private message I sent to you,:thumbsup:


#19

Question 1.

How can Jesus, as a Finite Bodied Entity, be considered God Himself, when there are several references in the Bible that God is infinite?

The following is given as a summary of two central mysteries, essential to understanding who and what Jesus was, and his authority for teaching.

There are three divine persons in God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
They are distinct persons.
But there is only one God, not three.
They are distinct but not separate. If separate, there would be 3 gods not 1.
They are three in one.
Three distinct persons in one God.
Illustration: 3 leaves in one plant - a 3 leaf clover.
This mystery was told to us by God because the human mind did not have enough knowledge to reach such a conclusion on it's own.

The second person of the Trinity, the Son, existed from all eternity, but also came into existence into THIS world in time as man, called Jesus.
This divine person became flesh(man) in Mary's womb and was born of her.
Becoming man he has a human soul, that is, a human intellect and will, besides the divine intellect and will.
But there is only one person of Jesus, the divine person, not two persons.
Tho He became man, he remained a divine person because he came from heaven.
He has both human and divine natures, but is a divine person.
Nature is "what", person is "who".
Therefore He is both God(from heaven) and man(from Mary).
This mystery too was told to us by God.

It was Jesus, both God and Man, prophesied in the Old Testiment,that was to come and redeem man from sin in the New Testiment, to enable man to share with God his happiness for all eternity.
This mystery was told to us by God.

Understanding God revolves around these truths, that of the 3 persons in God, and of the 2 natures in Jesus. With this revealed knowledge, the knowledge of Jesus' teaching comes to life, and without it, nothing makes sense. So when you read the bible, keep this in mind and the bible will make sense when you understand who and what Jesus is.


#20

So, by your reasoning, if your father is a man, then you, as his son, are not a man? Yet, it is evident, by the reality of nature, that a son of a man is also a man.

John 6

62 What then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?


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