I am so darned tired of bad liturgical experiences!


#1

When it comes to the liturgy I get so darned tired of bad experiences!

On one extreme end we have the sexism/feminism, felt banners, adobe-colored vestments, missing vestments, wood/glass sacred vessels, abusive use of EMcHC, loud talking in church, rings of people around the altar, abusive inclusive language, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

On the other end we have the reactionaries. Only the -]EF Mass/-] TLM, holier than though attitudes, everything they don't personally care for is an "abuse", no women in liturgical roles no matter what the Church actually allows, veils worn as crowns of piety, severe behavior towards others, dress like it's 1955 or risk scorn, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Sadly these two extremes constitute far too many of the Catholic liturgies celebrated today.

I realize we are humans and suffer from the reality of Original Sin. One would think however that with God's Grace the experience we receive when we attend a liturgy or get involved in a parish would not be as marginal (or downright awful) as it too often is.

We humans -- sinners that we are, should be doing a far better job with God's Church. I am finding this more and more frustrating.


#2

I’m tired of bad liturgical experiments.


#3

[quote="Jegudiel, post:1, topic:283563"]
When it comes to the liturgy I get so darned tired of bad experiences!

On one extreme end we have the sexism/feminism, felt banners, adobe-colored vestments, missing vestments, wood/glass sacred vessels, abusive use of EMcHC, loud talking in church, rings of people around the altar, abusive inclusive language, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

On the other end we have the reactionaries. Only the -]EF Mass/-] TLM, holier than though attitudes, everything they don't personally care for is an "abuse", no women in liturgical roles no matter what the Church actually allows, veils worn as crowns of piety, severe behavior towards others, dress like it's 1955 or risk scorn, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Sadly these two extremes constitute far too many of the Catholic liturgies celebrated today.

I realize we are humans and suffer from the reality of Original Sin. One would think however that with God's Grace the experience we receive when we attend a liturgy or get involved in a parish would not be as marginal (or downright awful) as it too often is.

We humans -- sinners that we are, should be doing a far better job with God's Church. I am finding this more and more frustrating.

[/quote]

Mostly, I understand what you're saying, but there's nothing wrong with women wearing prayer veils. It says in Corinthians 1:11 that women are supposed to wear a head covering while in church.


#4

I am so tired of bad bishops! If not for some of them, many of these Mass Disasters would not be happening.


#5

[quote="ChibiViolet, post:3, topic:283563"]
Mostly, I understand what you're saying, but there's nothing wrong with women wearing prayer veils. It says in Corinthians 1:11 that women are supposed to wear a head covering while in church.

[/quote]

We are not protestants. We don't follow a literal interpretation of St. Paul as the foundation of our Faith. If Christ spoke those words, you might (might) have an argument. But the Magisterium dictates these matters, not individual, isolated Bible quotations.

I am tired of pro-veil people (and I wear one!) trying to push a PERSONAL PREFERENCE on everyone else, due to one Scripture verse. Scripture says if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Well, pal? Getting ready to blind yourself? If your hand causes you to sin, chop it off. Got that ax ready? I didn't think so?


#6

Is this going to be an all purpose rant thread?

I got some things I can rant about. :D


#7

Every Church I've celebrated Mass in (except the one that I go to for TLM) meets neither of these extremes.

Now... that might only be 4 Churches in my diocese, plus the Cathedral, but I think that says something. Every experience of mine is certainly not worthy of a complaint post here on CAF. Some of the priests might be bad homilists, some might be good homilists. There might be a lack of zeal or staying away from controversial things. But, have I ever witnessed a breach in orthodoxy? No.
Have I ever heard a priest say something which goes against (or even questions) Church teaching... Nope.

Do people wear veils in these parishes? Not very many, definitely under 10% of women in all of them. And none of the traditionalist stuff applies to them... because all of them celebrate the Ordinary Form, and a few Latin words might occasionally be sprinkled in on holidays or something.

So... maybe my nick of the woods is different from the Church as a whole. But, I doubt it. I thought I'd just shed some light on the parishes that no one talks about because everything is fine. There's nothing crazy going on that is heterodox or traditionalist. As difficult as it is to believe, there are plenty of Churches whose take on Mass doesn't cause anyone to "run to CAF" and rant about their priest or parishoners.
**
So, my advice to you would be to find a Church that isn't to either extreme (if that's what you're looking for). You should be able to find one.**


#8

[quote="Semper_Zelare, post:7, topic:283563"]
Every Church I've celebrated Mass in (except the one that I go to for TLM) meets neither of these extremes.

Now... that might only be 4 Churches in my diocese, plus the Cathedral, but I think that says something. Every experience of mine is certainly not worthy of a complaint post here on CAF. Some of the priests might be bad homilists, some might be good homilists. There might be a lack of zeal or staying away from controversial things. But, have I ever witnessed a breach in orthodoxy? No.
Have I ever heard a priest say something which goes against (or even questions) Church teaching... Nope.

Do people wear veils in these parishes? Not very many, definitely under 10% of women in all of them. And none of the traditionalist stuff applies to them... because all of them celebrate the Ordinary Form, and a few Latin words might occasionally be sprinkled in on holidays or something.

So... maybe my nick of the woods is different from the Church as a whole. But, I doubt it. I thought I'd just shed some light on the parishes that no one talks about because everything is fine. There's nothing crazy going on that is heterodox or traditionalist. As difficult as it is to believe, there are plenty of Churches whose take on Mass doesn't cause anyone to "run to CAF" and rant about their priest or parishoners.
**
So, my advice to you would be to find a Church that isn't to either extreme (if that's what you're looking for). You should be able to find one.**

[/quote]

Well said. People come here describing some church other than Catholic, or else they are moderately delusional or imprudent or have a calling as professional malcontents.

Everyone deep down seeks the peace of Christ, which can only come from Christ, not from liturgy.


#9

Sometimes these things can lead to temptation, at least for me. I attended a Mass once in 2008 where the priest said DURING the consecration, the Spirit came down like lightening, which is Barack in Hebrew...then continued on. Now, I don't know if that's true about the Hebrew word, but I was thinking some pretty bad thoughts until the end of Mass that day.

Hopefully that is very extreme, but those little steps away from the sacred jar me a little bit. I tend to find the more traditional stuff very conducive to prayer. It might get extreme, I guess, with some people just acting pious, but are hand holders really more genuine? I don't know.


#10

I visited my church's Teen Mass with my 12 year old last week--we had never been before. ANd I found I came out generally confused and not quite sure what to think.

On the pro side, the kids were very enthusiastic about praising God, there were a LOT of teens in attendance, the older teens who served as lectors, EMHC, etc did so graciously and respectfully, the altar servers had been well trained, and above all, my son was interested and wanted to come back.

Cons, at least from my view, were that at one point all the teens gathered near the altar (but below it) and wrapped their arms around each other, singing and doing gestures to go with the song. Many of them were attired in clothing that seemed more appropriate for a beach party than church and I can't fathom that the young men present were not distracted from worship by the sight of teen girls in short shorts and halter tops. The music was pulsating and loud, with lots of drums and guitar.

But the main thing that shocked me was at the very end, where a young man gut up, took the mike, stood on one of the altar steps and began talking for a few moments and was quickly interrupted (this was obviously planned) by two shrieking girls running up the main aisle yelling "save me save me" dressed in female pirate garb.. They were followed by a boy dressed as a pirate and one dressed as a beach goer, both with foam swords, fighting it out over whether the Teen Life group should have a Beach Party or Pirate Party this summer. The initial young man with the mike jokingly broke up the mock fight by telling them both were planned, and they departed.

Now--I think of myself as a pretty modern person, but wow. I mean, really--is the altar of the church a place for that kind of thing? On the other hand, am I being too prudish? Would Jesus have perhaps thought otherwise, and found more fault with ME instead for being judgmental? I wonder. At any rate , my son loved it and it encouraged him to want to return to Church--but.....at what price? When he went to a regular mass with me, prior to this, he did NOT want to return. SO, I don't really know what to think, as I am a new convert. Thoughts?


#11

[quote="Ancient1, post:4, topic:283563"]
I am so tired of bad bishops! If not for some of them, many of these Mass Disasters would not be happening.

[/quote]

All I am going to say in agreement with you is that when I think about are the pastors and bishops that have shepherded the parishes and dioceses I have been part of my entire life, with few exceptions, I just quietly shake my head...

On the other hand I follow men like Cardinal Timothy Dolan and I think "thank God...finally!"


#12

Regarding veils (and this is all I will say on the matter), there is clearly nothing at all wrong with women covering their heads in church. While not a requirement some feel it is a good thing and feel compelled to do so. No problem with that all.

What I detest are those that hold up the head veil as if it was a crown of piety. It's no longer about covering their heads to these people (you'll never see them wearing a hat), it's about putting on a crown. Many then seem to: coerce others to do so, look down upon those women that do not or look to play the martyr for doing so (when no one cares one way or the other.)


#13

The responsibility rests with the pastor and his staff. The college een Mass at my parish actually used to be one of the more reverent. Unlike your parish the servers, readers and EMsHC had next to no training -- and they struggled but there was a real sense of desire to do the right thing.

I think the paid staffers in charge of such things at my parish are desperate to build attendance and they don't have a clue how. They attend the LA Liturgical Congress each year and it has taken a real toll, along with the fact they aren't the highest caliber people to begin with. One asked me about adding drums to the often excellent music. I advised against it. I attended that Mass a few weeks ago and there was the drum kit. I could almost sense a collective wincing of the younger folks in attendance.

On the other hand what's the response by many? They angrily suggest that the kids "need the TLM!" as they retreat to attend the one (struggling) EF Mass in the deanery. Maybe I'll make a working list of reasons I am so frustrated.

In the end though it comes down to two words. Good leadership.

[quote="zenith15, post:10, topic:283563"]
I visited my church's Teen Mass with my 12 year old last week--we had never been before. ANd I found I came out generally confused and not quite sure what to think.

On the pro side, the kids were very enthusiastic about praising God, there were a LOT of teens in attendance, the older teens who served as lectors, EMHC, etc did so graciously and respectfully, the altar servers had been well trained, and above all, my son was interested and wanted to come back.

Cons, at least from my view, were that at one point all the teens gathered near the altar (but below it) and wrapped their arms around each other, singing and doing gestures to go with the song. Many of them were attired in clothing that seemed more appropriate for a beach party than church and I can't fathom that the young men present were not distracted from worship by the sight of teen girls in short shorts and halter tops. The music was pulsating and loud, with lots of drums and guitar.

But the main thing that shocked me was at the very end, where a young man gut up, took the mike, stood on one of the altar steps and began talking for a few moments and was quickly interrupted (this was obviously planned) by two shrieking girls running up the main aisle yelling "save me save me" dressed in female pirate garb.. They were followed by a boy dressed as a pirate and one dressed as a beach goer, both with foam swords, fighting it out over whether the Teen Life group should have a Beach Party or Pirate Party this summer. The initial young man with the mike jokingly broke up the mock fight by telling them both were planned, and they departed.

Now--I think of myself as a pretty modern person, but wow. I mean, really--is the altar of the church a place for that kind of thing? On the other hand, am I being too prudish? Would Jesus have perhaps thought otherwise, and found more fault with ME instead for being judgmental? I wonder. At any rate , my son loved it and it encouraged him to want to return to Church--but.....at what price? When he went to a regular mass with me, prior to this, he did NOT want to return. SO, I don't really know what to think, as I am a new convert. Thoughts?

[/quote]


#14

[quote="TrueLight, post:6, topic:283563"]
Is this going to be an all purpose rant thread?

I got some things I can rant about. :D

[/quote]

Sure...

It's getting to the point where I am afraid of losing my ability to deal with the Church in the way She is presented to me in my life.

I'm sure in the last 2-3 years there has been nearly a dozen times where I have attended Mass outside of my deanery or diocese and I thought "how I wish I had a Mass like this to attend every Sunday. Things would be a lot better if I did."

Are we REALLY supposed to offer-up our pain each Sunday until we no longer can and leave? Alternatively, are we really expected to move to improve our relationship with the Church?


#15

[quote="Ancient1, post:4, topic:283563"]
I am so tired of bad bishops! If not for some of them, many of these Mass Disasters would not be happening.

[/quote]

Right on. I'm also tired of complaining about bishops. Some of them are oblivious to what they are doing to the people as they pursue their own popular agendas. (for eg: illegal immigrants, the economy, the war, etc. while the parishioners are going to hell in a hand basket eg unmarrieds living together, abortions, girls in miniskirts going up to the altar to do the readings etc.)

,
I'm tired of hearing "good morning" from my supposedly traditional priest. Don't get me wrong he's one of the few good priests in the diocese. But....."good morning"?? when the Holy SACRIFICE of the Mass is about to take place.I told him once (we are on very friendly terms) : "Can you imagine John or Our Lady standing at the foot of the Cross and turning towards the people and saying "Good morning"? It took him aback for a minute and he said nothing, like he never quite ever thought of it that way. I was HOPEFUL...but to no avail. He still says it and everyone answer "good morning, father" Then after Mass while Our Lord waits for us to chat with Him, He waits unattended in the tabernacle while the congregation is talking to each other in Church so that it sounds like a gymnasium cheering squad gone bananas.

All we can do is pray that Our Lord will intervene and bishops and priests will wake up. What else can we do. They will not listen.


#16

[quote="AveMariaMag7, post:15, topic:283563"]
Right on. I'm also tired of complaining about bishops. Some of them are oblivious to what they are doing to the people as they pursue their own popular agendas. (for eg: illegal immigrants, the economy, the war, etc. while the parishioners are going to hell in a hand basket eg unmarrieds living together, abortions, girls in miniskirts going up to the altar to do the readings etc.)

,
I'm tired of hearing "good morning" from my supposedly traditional priest. Don't get me wrong he's one of the few good priests in the diocese. But....."good morning"?? when the Holy SACRIFICE of the Mass is about to take place.I told him once (we are on very friendly terms) : "Can you imagine John or Our Lady standing at the foot of the Cross and turning towards the people and saying "Good morning"? It took him aback for a minute and he said nothing, like he never quite ever thought of it that way. I was HOPEFUL...but to no avail. He still says it and everyone answer "good morning, father" Then after Mass while Our Lord waits for us to chat with Him, He waits unattended in the tabernacle while the congregation is talking to each other in Church so that it sounds like a gymnasium cheering squad gone bananas.

All we can do is pray that Our Lord will intervene and bishops and priests will wake up. What else can we do. They will not listen.

[/quote]

I could live with "good morning."

My church is often louder before and after Mass than a small middle school gym packed with kids. It's jaw-dropping bad yet the pastor seems as though he couldn't care any less. The DIN seems even worse before and after requiem Masses. It truly is bad -- by any measure.


#17

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:2, topic:283563"]
I'm tired of bad liturgical experiments.

[/quote]

Indeed. I'm sick of "neo-Catholics" (As Michael Davies calls the group, I'm still new to its usage) who equate faithful Catholics who want to reverse the liturgical revolution following Vatican II and return to tradition, most notably the traditional Mass; as extremists. As the extremist counterparts to the modernists!


#18

Sure looks that way, doesn’t it?


#19

The problem is not bad bishops or bad liturgies or anything else other than ourselves.

The problem is our own resistance to God's desire that we be conformed to Jesus Christ. The problem is our own inability to slow down enough to be able to hear the Holy Spirit speak to us.

These are not pie in the sky mystical things, but very real, very concrete, down to earth realities. We complain about a liturgy which lasts one hour per week but do we even pray for one hour? Read the Bible? Go on spiritual retreat? Examine our concience nightly?

I need to do a better job on that last one.

There was another thread where people were adamant that we are not only not required to sing, but that in some cases even stating that they obstinately refused to sing. Some guy in another thread was proud of the fact that he went to Mass and stared at the wall. If you go to a valid Mass where the redeemer of mankind is made present so that you can recieve him and be incorporated into his body - and be clear that Jesus is not incorporated into you but you are incorporated into him - if you do that and stare at the wall the whole time then you deserve to be frustrated. I question whether someone can go to the Mass, any Mass, and stare at the wall and still claim to have a deep life of prayer.

Garbage in, garbage out. You get out of it what you put into it. Go into it looking for abuse and that is what you will see, nothing but abuse. You are setting yourself up for frustration.

**Victim be clear, you're all volunteers. *
- Pete Steele*

When you drive to mass thinking "This is gonna stink" well then guess what? It's gonna stink. You are living eternal lent in the heart of the Catholic Church, and it is your own fault.

-Tim-


#20

[quote="TimothyH, post:19, topic:283563"]
The problem is not bad bishops or bad liturgies or anything else other than ourselves.

The problem is our own resistance to God's desire that we be conformed to Jesus Christ. The problem is our own inability to slow down enough to be able to hear the Holy Spirit speak to us.

These are not pie in the sky mystical things, but very real, very concrete, down to earth realities. We complain about a liturgy which lasts one hour per week but do we even pray for one hour? Read the Bible? Go on spiritual retreat? Examine our concience nightly?

I need to do a better job on that last one.

There was another thread where people were adamant that we are not only not required to sing, but that in some cases even stating that they obstinately refused to sing. Some guy in another thread was proud of the fact that he went to Mass and stared at the wall. If you go to a valid Mass where the redeemer of mankind is made present so that you can recieve him and be incorporated into his body - and be clear that Jesus is not incorporated into you but you are incorporated into him - if you do that and stare at the wall the whole time then you deserve to be frustrated. I question whether someone can go to the Mass, any Mass, and stare at the wall and still claim to have a deep life of prayer.

Garbage in, garbage out. You get out of it what you put into it. Go into it looking for abuse and that is what you will see, nothing but abuse. You are setting yourself up for frustration.

**Victim be clear, you're all volunteers. **
- Pete Steele

When you drive to mass thinking "This is gonna stink" well then guess what? It's gonna stink. You are living eternal lent in the heart of the Catholic Church, and it is your own fault.

-Tim-

[/quote]

Very well put. for those on this thread that are complaining about Bishops and Priests, have you honestly tried to pray for them or are you praying for them? If you are going to mass in order to pick it apart for what it is or isn't doing you will end up with the stuff and attitudes being expressed here. If you are going to mass to encounter the living God in the 2 parts of mass liturgy of the Word and the Eucharist that is what you will encounter. it is all too easy to go to mass, pick it apart and then come on a public forum like this to complain. If you are concern about what is happening in your mass, have you tried to be a part of the worship committee in your parish? have you tried to be even apart of it in being an usher, lector, EM etc. have you tried to train and become a sacristan which is often the person who is organizing the mass? it is very sad to see what probably are concerns about liturgical problems yet instead of being positive and involved to make changes you undermined your credibility by gripping on the internet for the world to see.


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