I Am So Out Of My League!


#1

If some one is as educated as this, please help!!!

forum.protestwarrior.com/viewtopic.php?t=75708&start=60


#2

That’s a big, complex thread. Could you please just state your question here?

Thanks.


#3

[quote=Joseph Bilodeau]That’s a big, complex thread. Could you please just state your question here?

Thanks.
[/quote]

The whole thing was based on the interpretation of john 3:5

he just proved that water does =womb…

I need some way to debunk him…


#4

Justin Martyr

“Whoever are convinced and believe that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: ‘In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit,’ they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven’” (*First Apology *61:14–17 [A.D. 151]).

This is one of the quotes of the early church fathers on baptism. It is from here catholic.com/library/Baptismal_Grace.asp at CA Library.

or this one from here: catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp

**

Born Again in Baptism

One key Scripture reference to being “born again” or “regenerated” is John 3:5, where Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. “Born again” Christians claim the “water” is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism
**
Although they may not accept anything outside of the Bible, you can clearly show that the interpretation of water has been baptism.

There are more tracts with other explanations here
catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp

God Bless and stand firm in your faith in Christ and in the Catholic Church.


#5

[quote=Valtiel]The whole thing was based on the interpretation of john 3:5

he just proved that water does =womb…

I need some way to debunk him…
[/quote]

How could he prove that water=womb? When Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be born again, Nicodemus says, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”

If water = the amniotic fluid in the womb, then Nicodemus is correct, to be born again he must to claw his way back in his mother’s womb and be reborn again by natural birth.

Sheesh!

water = water of the Sacrament of Baptism. The water of the Sacrament of Baptism signifies the grace that the sacrament bestows. The grace of Baptism forgives all sin, and gives us new life in the Spirit.


#6

[quote=Valtiel]The whole thing was based on the interpretation of john 3:5

he just proved that water does =womb

I need some way to debunk him…
[/quote]

Just a simple question WHO exactly gave “he” authority to infallibly interpret the meaning of Scriptures??
In the meantime I copied the pertinent part of the post:

He posts: (Jn 3)
**5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born (what’s missing here?) of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. **

But your Bible says:
5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So, he snips out the “again” to make it sound as though the original water (of the womb) is never again. But water is part of “again” in which case the “again” water is the water of Baptism.

Finally:
For Jesus to say "Unless a man be born …he cannot enter heaven.
Dahhh!
This would make Jesus sound about as dense a Nicodemus.

Good Luck,

Someday I hope you give this up in favor of 2000 years of Wisdom in the Catholic Church.
Just think, you could spend all this time thanking God for being in the True Church, attending Mass, saying the Rosary for the sick…stuff like that.


#7

[quote=Valtiel]The whole thing was based on the interpretation of john 3:5

he just proved that water does =womb…

[/quote]

I read his post and he did no such thing. He asserted that his interpretation of John 3:5 is that when Jesus said “water” He meant “amniotic fluid.” This is very different from proving that Jesus meant that. (“Proof by assertion” is an extremely common logical fallacy. If you don’t have time to prove something, then go ahead and leave it as asserted, but don’t pretend that you’ve proven it.) If it’s not in the text, it’s interpretation, and Jesus most definitely did not equate the two.

One of the guiding principles of Sola Scriptura is that we use the Bible to interpret the Bible. (I don’t think the Church has any problem with this approach; we simply have another source of interpretation in the Tradition.) Where else in the Bible is water identified with amniotic fluid? I do not know of anywhere; I just did a quick look through the concordance of the New Testament and did not find anything. On the other hand, water is associated with baptism in each of the four Gospels (the ministry of John the Baptist and the baptism of Jesus). There is also a line in Ephesians 5:26 about Jesus washing the Church with water.

So … even using the standard Sola Scriptura methods of interpretation, Jesus was not referring to physical birth when He talked of being born of water and of the Spirit.

Looking a little further down the thread you referred to, I find a discussion of the Greek preposition in John 3:5, saying that because this is “water [that] one must leave,” it does not refer to baptism. Once again, this is an assertion. Translating prepositions from one language to another is extremely tricky and I would not base a doctrine on it. (I note that RedPyramid in the posting in that thread on May 3, 1:18 PM lists the various uses of this particular preposition.) So again … in the other thread there is nothing like a proof that “water” means “amniotic fluid.”

  • Liberian

#8

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