I am trying to convert someone over internet


#1

She says that she’s Agnostic (spiritual but not religious(dedicated to any religion)), and she says that she won’t become any more religious if she dosn’t have any phyical proof. If you can help me it will be very much appreached.

Thx,
Joseph Callaway


#2

Perhaps the miracles of the Church would help her, such as those from Lourdes. St. Bernadette herself lies in repose, incorrupt, even though her body was never embalmed. She looks beautiful, unlike Egyptian mummies or other such manifestations.


#3

I recommend the writings of Peter Kreeft.

peterkreeft.com/featured-writing.htm

Also direct her to C.S. Lewis’ “Mere Christianity,” available as a free MP3 download here.


#4

Is your goal to see her become born again as a result of repenting and putting her faith in Christ, or are you trying to recruit her to your church?


#5

Either one, I just want her to find Christ, and convert to any dnomintion of christainity.


#6

OK because the reason I ask is that anytime a Catholic talks about “converting” somebody, they nearly always mean getting that person to become Catholic.

You can’t talk somebody into getting saved. All you can do is to preach the Gospel to them and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

From what you’ve described, she’s not open to the Gospel so I wouldn’t even bother.


#7

The Jewish people and Christians themselves are both physical proofs. The Jews in reference to God’s faithfulness to his promises to them. And, Christians based on the psychological aspects of the apostles between the death and resurrection of Jesus. After Jesus’ death, the disciples were in hiding. After, his resurrection they were out in the open preaching. The Church today is the physical sign of that transfermation.


#8

One becomes born again when they are baptized in water and receive the Holy Spirit, according to Jesus’ words, recorded in Scripture, John’s Gospel, Ch 3. Repenting and having faith in Christ do not result in someone being “born again” apart from baptism. To claim that anything other that baptism in water and with the Holy Spirit is how we’re born again is preaching a different gospel.

or are you trying to recruit her to your church?

Something wrong with the Church that Christ founded? If someone becomes a believer, isn’t it important that they become involved in a Church so they can grow in the faith?

To the OP: The Case for Christ by Lee Stroebel would be good, as well as More than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell. Both were atheists who set out to disprove Christianity and got very different results. :wink:


#9

That isn’t what the Bible says. Sprinkling water on a baby’s head just makes them wet, not born again.

Repenting and having faith in Christ do not result in someone being “born again” apart from baptism.

The Bible says that they do. I choose to believe the Bible.

To claim that anything other that baptism in water and with the Holy Spirit is how we’re born again is preaching a different gospel.

I agree. Jesus Christ, Paul, the Bible, Christianity and I are all preaching a different Gospel than you.

Something wrong with the Church that Christ founded? If someone becomes a believer, isn’t it important that they become involved in a Church so they can grow in the faith?

Sure. Get them into a Bible believing church so they can grow.

However, the point of evangelism isn’t to recruit for your particular religious organization.


#10

So you disagree with Jesus who told Nicodemus to be “born of water and the Spirit” to be born again and see the Kingdom of God?

The Bible says that they do. I choose to believe the Bible.

Chapter and verse that says we are born again when we repent and have faith in Christ.

I agree. Jesus Christ, Paul, the Bible, Christianity and I are all preaching a different Gospel than you.

And I can show you from the Bible where Jesus Christ, Paul, the Bible and Christianity have taught that we are born again in water baptism for nigh unto 2000 years, (well, slightly less than that for the Bible since the NT wasn’t canonized until the late 4th Century, and even then your average Joe couldn’t read it) that we must persevere to the end to be saved, not just “ask Jesus to be our Personal Lord and Saviour.”

Sure. Get them into a Bible believing church so they can grow.

Even better if they’re in a Church that believes the whole Bible. :thumbsup:

However, the point of evangelism isn’t to recruit for your particular religious organization.

Do you think that the original evangelists weren’t particular about what was taught to new believers and from whom the new believers learned the finer points of the Faith?


#11

No, I agree with Jesus. I disagree with you and the false meaning you’re applying to this verse.

Chapter and verse that says we are born again when we repent and have faith in Christ.

Romans 10 gives a good overview.

And I can show you from the Bible where Jesus Christ, Paul, the Bible and Christianity have taught that we are born again in water baptism for nigh unto 2000 years

OK. Do it.

Even better if they’re in a Church that believes the whole Bible. :thumbsup:

I agree. Better, then, that they should stay away from Catholicism.

Do you think that the original evangelists weren’t particular about what was taught to new believers and from whom the new believers learned the finer points of the Faith?

Yes, they were very particular. And if you’ll read the examples of them preaching the Gospel in scripture, you’ll see that it’s always about people being saved, not recruiting people to a religious organization.


#12

Jesus created his Church on the foundation of Peter. Peter’s successors have faithfully followed the true faith for 2000 years. Jesus didn’t found denominations. He founded one Church. Show me from the Bible where Jesus handed the keys to some schismatic sect after the Reformation and proclaimed that sect the true church.


#13

So how do you explain the " Water " part
of what Jesus said ?


#14

Hey, everyone, let’s not let one lone voice of objection to Catholic teaching take the whole thread off topic. Those who want to talk about which church is the right one should take it to another thread. It’s not fair to the OP to take the thread off on a tangent.

Now back to the subject at hand, I think offering any amount of argument is not going to help this person. That’s why I recommended investigating the bona fide miracles of the Church. They are fully documented. They are physical proof, which is what was asked for.


#15

I really don’t think that you can provide proof sufficient to convert someone without the action of the Holy Spirit in their lives. There are many books about miracles. Bernadette is a really good place to start. It will depend on how open your friend’s heart is.


#16

The resurrection was physical proof.

The disciples saw it and told everyone they could about what they had seen. Later, some of them even wrote about it. Their writings were later compiled in a book that we call the Bible.

There’s your documentation.


#17

Are you not in error because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God?

INFANT BAPTISM PROVED FROM SCRIPTURE

Old Covenant

Genesis 17:9-14
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Leviticus 12:3
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

These texts show the circumcision of eight-day-old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant.

Connection to New Covenant

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the new “circumcision of Christ” for all people of the New Covenant.

Do Infants Need Baptism?

Job 14:1-4
1 "Man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. 2 He springs up like a flower and withers away; like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure. 3 Do you fix your eye on such a one? Will you bring him before you for judgment? 4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!

Psalm 51:5
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

We are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the need for baptism from the moment of conception.

Jesus Extols Child-like Faith

Matthew 18:2-5
2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Jesus Receives Little Children and Infants

Matt 19:13-15
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Mark 10:13-16
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Luke 18:15-17
15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

The Church Begins to Preach Baptism

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Peter did not say, “Every one of you adults”; he said, “Every one of you” without qualification and added “the promise (of the Holy Spirit) is for you and your children”. Baptism and the Holy Spirit are frequently connected throughout the Bible (cf. Ez. 36:25-27, Mt. 3:16, Jn. 3:5).

Acts 10:47-48
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius which probably included infants and young children. There is not one word in this passage (or any other in scripture) about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15
13On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home.

Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children. Further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia’s faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents’ faith, not the children’s faith.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53


#18

That may be a new record. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that many verses posted out of context in one post before.


#19

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone dismiss so many verses from the Word of God so quickly before. :wink:


#20

I’m not dismissing the verses, themselves. I’m just pointing out that none of them have anything to do with infant baptism and that you’ve taken most of them out of context.


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