I can't find this anywhere, Why was Satan in heaven in the first place?


#1

Why was Satan in heaven in the first place? I thought those in heaven are all in one in the body of Christ. Did Satan go to Purgatory? Did God know he would fall? if so (God knows all), why was he sent to heaven in the first place?

Just a few beginner questions. :slight_smile:


#2

I think Satan was in heaven before the earth was created.


#3

Satan was an archangel which means he was created before the earth (see the beginning of Genesis). He grew jealous of God’s glory and believed he could attain the same state. A war broke out between Satan and his army of angels and the rest of the Archangels and their army of angels. Satan and his army were defeated and all were thrown out of heaven and came to occupy the earth.

Since God is all-knowing, yes he knew what Satan would do but the angels, just like humans have free will to choose as they will. Since God also knew Adam and Eve would fall from grace by eating from the tree of good and evil, I tend to think Satan was allowed to do his thing to provide us with personifications of evil (Satan) and later, good (Jesus). That’s just my thought on the matter.


#4

Rev 12:7 And there was a great battle in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels.
Rev 12:8 And they prevailed not: neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world. And he was cast unto the earth: and his angels were thrown down with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of the testimony: and they loved not their lives unto death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man child.

Luk 10:17 And the seventy-two returned with joy, saying: Lord, the devils also are subject to us in thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said to them: I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?
Isa 14:13 And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north.
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 But yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, into the depth of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that shall see thee, shall turn toward thee, and behold thee. Is this the man that troubled the earth, that shook kingdoms,
Isa 14:17 That made the world a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof, that opened not the prison to his prisoners?

I hope this helps! :thumbsup:

In JMJ,
Scott<<<


#5

I think Satan was in heaven before the earth was created.

He still accuses the saints in God’s presence (Job).


#6

Satan and his angelic minions were never in Heaven. This article by Fr. Trigilio explains the Catholic teaching regarding the creation of all the angels and their choice either for or against God. Only those who chose God entered into the Beatific Vision (Heaven):

ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/ANGELS.TXT


#7

This is very cool, I didnt know this. :thumbsup:


#8

Notwithstanding that article, the Catholic Encyclopedia clearly agrees with what was cited by CathApol. Revelations place Satan in heaven, as does Luke, and Isaiah:

Rev 12:7 And there was a great battle in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels.
Rev 12:8 And they prevailed not: neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world. And he was cast unto the earth: and his angels were thrown down with him.

Luk 10:18 And he said to them: I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?


#9

What article is this?

I would like to understand how Lucifer could partake in the fullness of the beatific vision one day and fall from it the next. The only way that makes sens to me is to understand that Lucifer never partook in the fullness of the beatific vision.


#10

St. Thomas Aquinas addresses the question (of course! :slight_smile: )

  1. GRACE AND GLORY OF THE ANGELS
  1. Although the angels were created in heaven, and with natural happiness or beatitude, they were not created in glory, that is, in the possession of the beatific vision.
  1. To possess God in the beatific vision the angels require grace.
  1. And, while the angels were created in the state of sanctifying grace, this was not the grace which confirms the angels in glory. Had the angels been created with the confirming grace, none of them could have fallen, and some did fall.
  1. Angels were created in grace, and by using this grace in their first act of charity (which is the friendship and love of God) they merited the beatific vision and heavenly beatitude.
  1. Instantly upon meriting the beatitude of heaven, the angels possessed it. The angelic nature, being purely spiritual, is not suited for steps and degrees of progress to perfection, as is the case with man.
  1. The higher angels, those of more perfect nature and keener intelligence, have greater gifts of grace than other angels; for their more perfect powers turn them more mightily and effectively to God than is the case with angels of lesser capacity.
  1. The heavenly beatitude enjoyed by the angels does not destroy their nature or their natural operations; hence the natural knowledge and love of angels remain in them after they are beatified.
  1. Beatified angels cannot sin. Their nature finds perfect fulfillment in the vision of God; it is disposed towards God exclusively. There is in beatified angels no possible tendency away from God, and therefore no possible sin.
  1. Angels who possess God in beatific vision cannot be increased or advanced in beatitude. A capacity that is perfectly filled up cannot be made more full.

jesus-passion.com/angels.htm

So when I wrote “Beatific Vision (Heaven)” I should have been remembering that Heaven does not necessarily equate to the Beatific Vision.


#11

The article previously mentioned by Catholic Dude.
**
I tend to side with you that the logic here has some gaps. The presumption is that the beautifuic vision robs one of free will. My understanding (admittedly limited!) is that the reason Satan was given no option of repenting is because, unlike us, he did see God in all His glory and did have full understanding and choose not to serve Him. THAT is what made it all the more terrible a thing.**


The article says it’s like winning 10 million dollars and then someone trying to bribe you with a .01


I disagree. It’s like meeting someone else who has won 10 million dollars. Satan wasn’t dazzled by it, nor did he want to share it, nor did he want to serve the rightfull owner - Satan wanted to take over the new mansion and the 10 million for himself. Satan saw God and wanted to be God.


Isa 14:13 And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north.
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 But yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, into the depth of the pit.


#12

#13

Hate to change the subject a little, but do we know for sure what type of degree of KNOWLEDGE of God the demons had before their fall? Did they know the whole of salvation history in a spiritual sense, or did they only know as much as Adam and Eve?

because Jesus told St. Faustina one of the reasons the demons weren’t forgiven was that they “knew so much.”


#14

This makes me think.

Even Angel could lose their salvation as Lucifer did. What about those who live on Earth. :wink: Once saved, always saved…hmmm…let’s give it a thought!


#15

:smiley:


#16

So what you are saying is once one makes the choice and sees God - they can’t change their mind? I’m not arguing that they had to have made a choice to see Him in the first place. I’m saying I don’t know that they no longer had a choice afterwards.


Interesting discussion.


#17

We know that they didn’t have the Beatific Vision because they were created with free will and to have immediately seen the Beatific Vision would have compelled their assent (and ascent) to God, thus they didn’t have complete (to their individual capacity to receive) knowledge of God. Further, their mode of knowing (not going from point to point as we do and thus higher than our mode) made their choice for or against God instantaneous. The article that I linked to above includes this:

  1. THE MEDIUM OF ANGELIC KNOWLEDGE
  1. God gives the angels their knowledge of things when he brings them into existence. This knowledge is creatural knowledge, and hence is not comprehensive, as is the knowledge of God alone.
  1. An angel’s ideas or intelligible species are directly imparted by the Creator; hence an angel has no need to learn. God gives to angels that extent of knowledge that he chooses to give.
  1. And the extent of knowledge is not the same in all the angels. There are higher and lower angels. Each receives what is fitting and necessary for its status and the service it is to render, and therefore some angels know more than others. As we shall see later, the imparting of knowledge to angels by the Creator is comparable to light that shines through a succession of panes of glass, one under the other, so that while the light pours out at once and penetrates the whole series of panes, it may be truly said that the lower panes receive their light from the upper panes. And so the lower angels (that is, the less perfectly endowed angelic natures) are illuminated or instructed by the higher angels. Nor, as we see, does this conflict with the fact that angels have their knowledge from God as soon as they come into existence.

#18

That’s correct; once they - and we - receive the Beatific Vision that compels the intellect to cling to God, never to be able to leave Him. That is why, as I mentioned earlier, the Good Angels and all who receive the Beatific Vision can never chose other than God. This is why Peace reigns in Heaven; there is no fear of losing Who and What we behold.


#19

“Satan” never was in heaven. However “Lucifer” was. Now you have to understand what happened to Lucifer where he became “Satan” after his fall. Sort of like how Anikin Skywalker ceased to exist and became Dart Vader so to say.

Ken


#20

Again - that is a lack of free-will. Iffy. I get the heirarchy of angels. However, it has always been made clear that Lucifer/Satan was not just some low-level angel. I have always understood that he was an archangel? I would think peace reigns in heaven because everyone who is there is faithful and loving of doing our Lord’s will. We’d have peace on earth if we could achieve the same attitude here.:slight_smile: The occassion which there was not peace would be when Lucifer/Satan tried to stage a coup.


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