I don't get the whole Mary thing


#1

I mean why so much? :confused:


#2

Why so much what? And where do you see this?

Can we ever honor her as much as her Son did, and does?


#3

Not much to get. She is the Mother of God. That says it all. It is based on what we believe about Christ. Catechism:

  1. What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.

OK I’ll wait for your review of Zachello. :smiley:

Phil P


#4

[quote=phantomsilver]Basically the title says it all :confused:
[/quote]

The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary, and she conceived by the Holy Spirit. “Behold, the handmaid of the Lord”. And the Word was made flesh.

Her interaction with God is a pattern for us to imitate in our interaction with God.

Not only is she a model for all to imitate, but her example actually enables us to imitate it, because without her cooperation with God, we would have no Saviour. God required her cooperation for the rest of us to be saved through Christ.

Likewise, in our own personal case, God requires our cooperation for our own salvation through Christ.

hurst


#5

[quote=hurst]The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary, and she conceived by the Holy Spirit. “Behold, the handmaid of the Lord”. And the Word was made flesh.

Her interaction with God is a pattern for us to imitate in our interaction with God.

Not only is she a model for all to imitate, but her example actually enables us to imitate it, because without her cooperation with God, we would have no Saviour. God required her cooperation for the rest of us to be saved through Christ.

Likewise, in our own personal case, God requires our cooperation for our own salvation through Christ.

hurst
[/quote]

I agree with everything you said but i still don’t get the whole thing. I mean like this “Hail, Mary! My Queen, My Mother, My Advocate!” thats what i don’t get. (and i quoted all of what you wrote because i like the way you put it)


#6

[quote=phantomsilver]i still don’t get the whole thing
[/quote]

Can you be more specific? What exactly don’t you get?


#7

phantom << I agree with everything you said but i still don’t get the whole thing >>

I don’t get the whole Bible thing. Word of God this, Word of God that, just because God wrote it don’t mean anything. What’s up with that. :smiley:

Phil P


#8

I don’t understand…God wrote it…that should mean something! lol :stuck_out_tongue:


#9

One thing to consider is Mary’s role. There are three things to note. First, she is the mother of God. Her ability and incliination to intercede on our behalf are shown at the wedding of cana. Second, she is the new Eve. One brought sin into a perfect world, where the other brought salvation into a fallen world. Finally, she is the ark of the covenant! This is attested to in the book of Revelations11:19-12:1 “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightining, rumblings, and peals of thunder, and earthquake, and a violent hailstorm. A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”

Consider the respect the Jews paid to the ark of the covenant. How much more should we pay tribute to Mary, who contained not mannah, but Jesus, the true bread from heaven, within her.

Also keep in mind that “Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you.” is a direct quote from the Bible.


#10

phantom << God wrote it…that should mean something! >>

Ah ha, Mary is mother of God, that should mean something.

That might be where to start, the meaning of theotokos in the early centuries. All devotion and doctrine spring from that. Also “all generations will call me blessed” and she was “full of grace” (Luke 1-2).

Phil P


#11

[quote=phantomsilver]I agree with everything you said but i still don’t get the whole thing. I mean like this “Hail, Mary! My Queen, My Mother, My Advocate!” thats what i don’t get. (and i quoted all of what you wrote because i like the way you put it)
[/quote]

It would take a lot to get the whole thing. There is a lot behind that, and I am not just mimicking a phrase. I really mean what I put there!

I am greeting her, for one thing. Hail! I welcome her into my life! I am trying to return the welcome she has given me, and it makes me want to drop all that hinders, drop any grudges, drop any ulterior motives, open up any hidden or secret places in my soul! It makes me cry to see my heart so small. I am like a tiny bud trying to open. She is so full of love for me, and I see it is because I am so precious to her Jesus, Who is so precious to her. Her love for me is because of Jesus. She is not afraid to stand up for Jesus. Have you ever met a true Christian? One who is fearless, full of devotion and love to Jesus, and invests that deeply and personally into one of His lambs? She is the real Christian. But I am rather a goat that has been entrusted to her for her to tame, and I value her help.

I call her My Queen! I delight to obey her because any effort I give toward her endeavors will not be wasted (something I can’t say for my own endeavors). She has been given great power by God and commands the heavenly army. She crushes the head of the serpent. I am willing to happily submit to her rule who knows and does what most pleases Our King, whereas I am full of speculation.

I call her My Mother! She kisses my ouchies. I have had deep hurts that no one else would or could care about. She looks on me so tenderly it makes me trust her with my heart and soul. She has been given to us by Jesus Who acted in the Name of His Father in heaven. If I can barely take in the value of Mary, who is animated by and lives in Jesus, how much more beyond this is His glory and love?

Now I need Mary even more, to be able to give Jesus a worthy love. I treasure her heart so much, which gives Jesus more love than all other creatures combined. I call her My Advocate! She stands up for me, and arranges for my needs. I rely on her to ask on my behalf for my needs, and even for those I pray for, leaving the prioritizing up to her. I offer her my gifts, merits, works, and anything of value because I know she will do more with them to the honor of God than I could even hope to do. And I even give her the credit for doing all this, if only for her love. I love her so much! Or rather, she loves me so much! She gives me hope of heaven to persevere, and invites me to work with her. She reverses all the rejection I have ever felt in my life.

She is the most precious gift from God for in her are all the treasures of the Holy Trinity, including Jesus, and the amazing secret about Mary is that God allows us to imitate Him in giving all our treasures to Mary. Jesus emptied Himself for our love. We now have a worthy vessel into which we can empty all our treasures, too! And in doing so, we imitate Jesus and find ourselves in His likeness! “He who loses His life for My sake shall find it.” I understand this now. A true Christian gives all he has, in order to obtain love. “You must be like a little child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven”. The pearl of great price is in the field we must purchase. Mary is like the field. The Church is also like the field. In fact, the Church is also our Mother. It nourishes us with Jesus. The Church is the foundation of all the Truth we have today from God.

So, the “whole Mary thing” is huge. It takes more than just a few statements. It is about having someone who is worth loving with all we are and have for the love of God, worth imitating in knowing what it means to serve Christ, and worth trusting to supply for our shortcomings in pleasing Our Lord. It is so needed to help us overcome the biases associated with others who have made claims regarding Jesus that are off the mark. Mary knows her Son more than anyone else. If we stay close to her, we will recognize more readily when something is amiss.

hurst


#12

[quote=phantomsilver] I mean like this “Hail, Mary! My Queen, My Mother, My Advocate!” thats what i don’t get.
[/quote]

Everything that is true about the Blessed Virgin is true because of Christ Jesus.

Christ Jesus is God. Mary is his mother. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

Christ Jesus is our Prince of Peace. Mary is his mother. The mother of a prince is a queen. Therefore, Mary is our Queen of Peace.

Christ Jesus is the King of Kings. Mary is his mother. The mother of a king is a queen. Therefore, Mary is our Queen of Queens.

Christ Jesus is our brother in the Lord. Mary is his mother. Therefore, Mary is our mother in the Lord.

Et cetera.

– Mark L. Chance.


#13

PhantomSilver, You’ve read in the Old Testament how the Ark of the Covenant was to be treated with the utmost respect. We Catholic are taught that this pre-figured Mary. How so? Read on:

The joy-filled reception of Mary and Jesus in the Visitation is reminiscent of the way the Ark of the Covenant was welcomed in the Old Testament. As Israel’s most important religious vessel, the Ark carried three sacred items: the Ten Commandments; the staff of Aaron (the first high priest); and a jar containing manna (the heavenly bread that fed the Israelites for forty years in the desert). Yet what made the Ark most holy was God’s presence, which overshadowed it in the form of a cloud that filled the sanctuary.

When David became king, he brought the ark to Jerusalem. On the way, the ark traveled to the hill country of Judea, and it remained there in the house of Obededom for three months. When it finally arrived in Jerusalem, there was a grand procession, with people shouting joyfully before the ark and David leaping before the Lord’s presence. The account also mentions that David’s initial response to the ark was one of fear and wonder: “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Sam 6:2-16).

All this prefigures Mary’s journey to visit Elizabeth. Mary also travels “to the hill country … of Judea” and remains in a family’s house, “the house of Zechariah,” for three months. Like David, John the Baptist “leaped” in his mother’s womb before Mary. And you can hear the echoes of David as Elizabeth says, “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Lk. 1:39-43). Finally, Mary is greeted with shouts of joy, as Elizabeth “exclaimed with a loud cry”. The phrase of “exclaimed” was used five times in the Old Testament, and in every case it’s referring to the Ark of the Covenant. So why all the similarities between Mary and the Ark?

Just as God’s presence once overshadowed the sanctuary, which housed the Ark, so does the Holy Spirit now overshadow Mary (Lk. 1:35). As the ark carried the Ten Commandments, the Old Testament Law, so does Mary carry in her womb the one who has come to fulfill the Law (Mt. 5:17). As the ark carried the staff of the first high priest, so does Mary carry within her the last and true high priest, who will offer the perfect sacrifice to redeem the world (see Heb. 8:1-7). As the ark carried the heavenly bread called manna, so does Mary bear Jesus, who will call himself the true Bread of Life come down from heaven.

Most of all, as the ark of old bore God’s presence to Israel, Mary bears the presence of God become man to the whole world. And as the new Ark of the Covenant, she continues her role of bringing Christ into the world today through her powerful intercession for our lives.

Notworthy


#14

[quote=phantomsilver] “Hail, Mary! My Queen, My Mother, My Advocate!” thats what i don’t get.
[/quote]

Do you believe in the Communion of Saints? Do you believe that when faithful Christians die they enter God’s presence in heaven, that there they continue to love us and pray for us, and, if we do it with faith, that God allows them to hear us when we ask them to pray for us? If you do not believe in the Communion of Saints, then it is likely you won’t get the practice of addressing requests to Mary under any title …

Hail, Mary! This is based on the angelic salutation of Luke 1:28, where Gabriel came to Mary and said:Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you! (RSV-CE)

Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (KJV)

This is the way God’s servants greet Mary.

My Queen, My Mother, My Advocate! This is based on several things. It is based on the enduring Jewish custom dating from the first day of King Solomon’s reign that the king on the throne of David reigned with his mother, the queen-mother, seated at his right side. She would speak to the king on behalf of people, acting as their Advocate before the king:[size=2]19So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. 20Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.” (1 Kings 2:19-20)

Since Jesus is the King, his mother, Mary, is the Queen-Mother who reigns now in heaven with her son, seated at his right hand, acting as an Advocate for people to Jesus.

This is also based on St. John’s vision in Revelation 12:1-17, where the woman (Mary), who gave birth to the male child (Jesus) destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron, is depicted in heaven in queenly splendor, “clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” (Revelation 12:1) In other words, Mary is the reigning queen-mother of all those who acknowledge Jesus as their reigning king.

Also concerning Mary, the woman in Revelation 12:1-17, all “those [size=2]who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” are “her offspring.”(Revelation 12:17) In other words, Mary is the mother of all Christian believers. [/size][/size]This also comes from Jesus’ words to Mary and to his beloved disciple from the cross in John 19:26-27:
“Woman, there is your son.” In turn he said to the disciple, “There is your mother.”

My Queen, My Mother, My Advocate! This is the way Christians greet Mary. By calling Mary “My Mother”, I am confessing Christ as my Lord; by calling Mary “My Queen (or Queen-mother)” and “My Advocate”, I am confessing Christ as my King.


#15

if you are really interested, and the tone of your questions does not suggest that, I suggest you first visit the CA homepage, check out the library, tracts, and This Rock articles on the topics of interest to you. Then come here with specific questions. You might also do a search in the forums, especially on Ask an Apologist, for FAQs.


#16

[quote=phantomsilver]I mean why so much? :confused:
[/quote]

Considering that scripture says all generations will call her blessed, why so little in so many Christian denominations?

Just as an aside, I find it interesting that in a “man-centered” faith (Jesus, the apostles, the prophets all men), a woman is afforded the highest honor by God, and thus the highest veneration by the Catholic Church (not talking worship here, of course). More evidence to me that Catholicism is more balanced that Protestantism.


#17

[quote=phantomsilver]I mean why so much? :confused:
[/quote]

Mary “completes the picture”. In Jesus we have the perfection of God become man. In Mary we have, through the grace of God, the perfection of His creation. Mary is what we were all intended to be, were it not for the fall. Mary is God’s answer to the question “what were we made to be?” Mary shows us that humanity was created for perfection.


#18

[quote=phantomsilver]I mean why so much? :confused:
[/quote]

How much is “so much”? When compared to nothing, even a little bit seems like a lot. Since, as your profile indicates, you are coming from a Protestant perspective, you have heard next to nothing about what Christians have always believed about Mary. As Puzzleannie indicated, if you are a sincere enquirer, take the opportunity to learn by checking out the Catholic Answers tract page on this topic.


#19

[quote=phantomsilver]I mean why so much? :confused:
[/quote]

I say this with all sincerity;

be-cause


#20

This is a copy of one of my previous posts on a Protestant website questioning Mother of God or the “theotokos”. Believe it or not but our beliefs and respect for Mary are biblically founded. Just like everything else in the Catholic Church I promise it will make sense to you if you read and digest the content with an open mind. If you read Jack Chick, you got a long way to go.

You ask why the Roman Catholic Church holds Mary to such high regard. I have to ask why don’t you? I have never understood the concerns that some people have over the “Worship” of Mary. First of all we don’t worship Mary, we ask Mary for her intercession.
Lets be blunt, she is the “Mother of our Lord”. Luke 1:43
Who chose to be the first Christian? Mary. Luke 1:38
Who is mentioned in the New Testament more than any apostle except for Peter? Mary.
Who wept and stayed with the lord at the foot of his cross? Mary.
Who spent the most time with Christ during his life? Mary.
Even Luther expresses the belief that the Gospels praise Mary sufficiently by calling her (eight times) the Mother of Jesus.
Would you want me to talk about your mother with the same distaste as you have for the Mother of our Lord?

And he came to her and said, “**Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you! **” Luke 1:28
and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! Luke [font=Arial]1:42[/font]

**Hail Mary, Full of Grace.
The lord is with you.
Blessed are you amongst women.
And blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God.
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen **
The “Hail Mary” is a composite of the Angel Gabriel’s greeting (Luke 1:28) and Elizabeth’s greeting (Luke 1:42), both to Mary. It has been a popular prayer since the eleventh century. The name Jesus was added in the thirteenth century. Various versions of the Holy Mary emerged in the fourteenth century and were in general use soon there after. All of this occurred before the reformation.

[font=Arial] When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” John 2:1-10 [/font]

We Catholics do not worship Mary, as for any prayer to Saints we ask for their intersession, like a prayer chain. Mary prompted Jesus at the wedding to help with the dilemma of no wine. **Without Mary’s intercession would there have been a miracle? Can she not do the same for us? **Will Jesus send people to hell because they adhere to the commandments and love his mother as he did?

Too many men are interested in looking holy instead of being holy - St. Gregory the Great”
Peace,
David
Mary lover - Christ worshiper


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