I don't understand how some of my trad. latin mass going friends are anti-semitic!

My DH and I read George Weigel’s book ‘The Cube and THe Cathedral’ It was excellent. It really explained about how Europe’s population is dwindling and how they in general are becoming more and more secular and atheistic and ‘allergic to Christianity’. Mr. Weigel’s point is to encourage us to pray for Europe and to not let the ‘European problem’ become the ‘American problem’ He cited the start of the problem in modern times is more closely tied to the causes of ww1 (aside from the differences between Aquinas and Ockham.)

I was discussing this with some devout Catholic friends who attend Trad. Latin Mass and we got into a discussion of the causes of ww1. My friends (in amazement and dismay I found out that my other trad. latin rite friends agree!) that ‘in their opinion’ that the Jews had a lot to do with whats wrong with like everything! I was amazed. I do not hold this opinion and I don’t think you can just make that generalization. They feel that the assassination of the archduke of the Austrian-Hungarian empire (the last catholic empire in Europe) was a plot against catholics (I’m thinking - whoa! That’s not in the history books!) and how Stalin was a Jew and other evil leaders were too and how the Rothschilds got England to ‘trick’ the Arab nations. My friends believe that Jews are always trying to tear down Christianity. I don’t believe it. They also have all read the book "the Grand facade’ and state that JPII was a bad administrator and basically cannot say anything nice about him.

I was so disturbed by what they said that i called Colin Donovan’s radio show and talked to him about this. (I’m posting this because I want a more thorough answer. He did a good job but he had to be short because it was on the radio and it was the last question.) He stated that JPII has said something that was pro-Jew and he said that at that point the trad. Latin Mass goers became anti-semitic in like retaliation. I cited the wonderful book about Mother Angelic by Raymond Arroyyo which praises JPII immensely for his administrative powers and Colin agreed and stated that in his opinion trad. latin mass goers feel that EWTN was the ‘magisterium’ of the US and they didn’t like that. Some of these friend are into E. Michael Jones who has some VERY interesting things but some of it is really out there - sorry. I guess I’m asking for a further discerning and articulation of this. Its still a little foggy for me. I have a little son and don’t have a lot of reading time. I’m typing now at 2:34am becasue he is sleeping. I’m hoping you all can fill in the blanks for me. Thanks!

I do not believe that all trad. latin mass goers believe this. This is a group of 3 couples who happen to go to trad. latin mass in the NJ, PA, and CA. It is isolated and I do not mean to offend any or all trad. latin mass goers. I just want to understand my friends’ words. We’ve talked further about it and about Colin’s response and they say that Colin’s response was not very thorough and that they are in the right. Help!

Good question. I also would like to hear some informed discussion on this.

I’ll debate the nature of grace and truth with Jewish people. But I’ll have no part in Jewish conspiracy theories which are designed to slander Jewish people. Jewish people are not insterested in ‘destroying’ the Catholic faith-- and many are more than willing to work alongside Christians to speak out against the injustices of society.

I’m not sure where they picked up these ideas, but I’m almost certain their views do not reflect the views of Trad. Latin Mass participants. At least, I hope it doesn’t. The words they expressed against John Paul II are bizarre.

Does Traditional Latin Mass = pre-Vatican II = Mel Gibson sect? I always felt it was a shame that Vatican II felt it necessary to abandon the latin. I think it takes something away from the mystery. When I pray in a shul that uses english instead of Hebrew, I don’t like it as much.

(Waiting for you to start a “nature of Truth” thread)

I have very little insight into the reasons for anti-Semitism among the Catholic Traditionalists but will add what little I do know. Rome was rather more-or-less anti-Semitic even before Christianity came on the scene. One of the liabilities the early Church had to overcome was that it was seen as a ‘Jewish sect.’ The New Testament clearly lays the blame for Christ’s crucifixion on Jewish leaders in Jerusalem, explicitly blaming ‘the Jews’ in one notable passage. This laid the foundation for suspicion and mistrust between Christians and faithful Jews who did not accept Jesus as Messiah. This suspicion only grew as Christianity became predominantly Gentile.

There was MUCH bitter controversy between Jews and Christians in the first, second, and third centuries AD, leading to some shocking things said by both sides about the other. (I hope the Mods will kindly delete any links anyone might opt to post regarding such exchanges, as I don’t think rehashing what the Talmud might have said about Christians or what some Early Church Fathers may have said about Jewish people will contribute much to this discussion). This helped fuel a number of waves of anti-Semitic pogroms or persecutions in medieval Europe, of which the Holocaust was simply the most contemporary and most-horrific example. The fact that one can find good Catholics, including Catholic saints, who said insensitive things about Jews helps to foster the idea among Catholic Traditionalists that anti-Semitism is not necessarily wicked. Why the Traditionalists have made this a notable hallmark of their movement over the past twenty years or so is difficult to discern. I think though that there are some Jewish groups, hypersensitive to any possible outbreak of anti-Semitic attitudes, who characterized CathTrads some decades ago as anti-Semitic for their insistence on using a form of Easter liturgy which Jewish groups disliked. The CathTrads probably really only wanted to be left alone to worhsip using forms they have always used, but as criticism mounted, some seem to have lashed out in anti-Semitic anger. This is purely speculative by the way and I am far from being well-informed but it represents my impression of the facts.

Hope this helps!

Any racial intolerance towards the Jews is evil because our Lord was a Jew Himself. To call a Jewish person inferior is to call our Divine Savior inferior, and that is utter blasphemy.

However I think a lot of anger towards certain Jews today is because modern Jews are so atheistic. Its very tragic. I love Orthodox Jews (though I disagree with them on many things) but I openly detest secular Judaism. Many secular Jews in Hollywood and the media put perverted smut onto our TV’s. Look at Madonna. She is pretty much the prime example of an immoral atheist Hollywood Jew. The majority of Jews today also support the abortion holocaust and twist their own scipture to justify it. They are a disgrace to their ancestors.

Orthodox Judaism is closest to what was practiced by Abraham, Moses, Elijah, ect. However today Orthodox Jews are a minority. In their places have come liberal Jews, atheist Jews, and kabalhists. These Jews have perverted their own religion.

Modern Judaism is in such a sad state. Atheism, abortion, and perversion come out on top of God it seems. Pray for the Jews.

I suggest you read this - fisheaters.com/jcintro.html

Long read, but very interesting.

There are certain people who should not lead the fight against antisemetism. You are definately one of them.

What? You are offended by me calling most modern Jews atheistic? I’m sorry, but its true. Look at Sigmund Freud, the butcher of common morality: Jewish. The Jews of today seem to forget God exists entirely. The ADL supports homosexuals and abortion and secularism while at the same time criticizing any hint of public Christianity. The Jews in America are a very small minority, yet they have a huge influence: Hollywood, the media, foreign policy, the economy, ect. Its not some “grand zionist conspiracy”, its a plain and obvious fact.

In public schools kids are forbidden to learn about Christmas, yet they are forced to learn about Hannukah (which I’ll get to in a moment). When I was in public school I had to make a dradel, a manorah, and eat Jewish bread.

And they are waging a war against Christmas, alongside the outright atheists (which most Jews seem to be). Are Muslims or Hindus vocally opposing Christmas trees in public? Not that I’ve seen. It seems to be just the Jews and the atheists. The Jewish holiday of “Hannukah” was made big in America only for money purposes, and yet the Jews want the whole country to recognize it as equal to Christmas (never mind the fact that this country is 80% Christian and 2% Jewish). I was told by a Jew himself that Hannukha was only made popular in America so Jewish businessmen could financially compete with Christians. Over in Israel the Orthodox Jews don’t make a big deal out of Hannukah, its only the atheist Jews in America.

And please don’t call me “antisemetic”. On a personal level I know plenty of marvelous Jews and I am friends with a few. I don’t see Jewish people as any lower than anyone else. I just am saddened by the level of atheist Jewish activism thats been rising in the West.

your post is classic antisemetic, even down to the “some of my best friends are jewish” line. I don’t think there’s one line in your entire post that isn’t anti-semetic. What does celebrating Hanukah have to do with anything? On the plus side, your’s is the first blatantly antisemetic post I’ve seen on these boards in the last month.

Look bro, I’m not anti-semetic. You are just too politically-correct:p.

There are certainly religious Jews out there who I’m totally cool with. I even defend Jews as a whole when the time comes for it. One time some nazi punk came onto a message board I posted at and started spewing some anti-semetic nonsense. I was quick to rebuke his vile ideas.

My problem is with modern Judaism and the fact that it is pretty atheistic and has lost a lot of its connection with God. So many Jews seem to not believe in God yet they always play the “Jewish card” to gain sympathy. Is it not true that most Jewish rabbis endorse the abortion holocaust? Abraham and Moses would never allow abortion, yet the majority of modern Jewish rabbinical leadership claims they would. How disgusting is that? And is it not true the major push against Christmas has come from Jews? And is it not true that a Jew took prayer out of schools in the Engel vs. Vitale case? Is it not true that the ADL is rabidly campaigning to remove the 10 Commandments (which ironically God gave originally to the Jews) from public?

I’m just looking at the facts, and it seems today most Jews are secular and see themselves as an ethnic tribe rather than a religion. And thats a real shame.

you really should just stop now. I don’t think the hole can get any deeper.

To me—a thread like this—just seems intended to instigate trouble for those who like the TLM.

And yet you have no defense for your claims.

I am not going after Jewish people, I am going after a trend I see in modern Judaism. My love of the Jews motivates me, not “anti-semetism”. A religion with a rich Biblical history such as Judaism deserves better than atheistic infestation like it has now.

What’s TLM?

I don’t know the people of whom you speak, but I think it would be incorrect to say most Trads are anti-semitic. Most Trads are very conservative politically, and that conservatism has deep roots. Most Trads are deeply patriotic as well, and tend to be “America Firsters”, being very suspicious of anything that smacks of internationalism. Blaming Bolshevism on a “Jewish conspiracy” is nearly a century old. Many of the old Bolsheviks; Trotsky, Radek, Kamenev, Zinoviev, were Jews, though not religious Jews, of course. They were ferociously anti-religious. Stalin, of course, was not a Jew and was, himself, anti-semitic. But a great number of Americans believed, because of the prevalence of Jews in the Bolshevik hierarchy, out of proportion to their numbers in the Russian population, that Jews were “in charge”. A particular belief of some Jews seemed to support it. Some Jews believe the Messiah cannot come until the whole world is already at peace. Some have suspected that meant “at any price”. Catholics during most of the 20th century (including Pope Pius XII) were very much against communism. To some, disclosure that the Jewish Rosenbergs were Soviet spies who gave U.S. atomic secrets to the USSR, confirmed for some the notion that Bolshevism was a “Jewish conspiracy”. Jews in the U.S. tend to be liberals, and oftentimes very conservative people see little difference between liberalism and communism.

There has been a tendency on the part of Catholics in the U.S. toward isolationism; possibly born of a distrust of “entanglement” with European governments which, after all, most Catholics fled. Historically in the U.S., most Catholics were working class or middle class, and tended toward populist notions. Part of that belief system included suspicion of “malefactors of great wealth” of any religious persuasion. In the 1930s and 1940s, populism for Catholics was embodied by Fr. Couglin, a popular radio personality, who saw banks and bankers (many being Jewish) as the source of virtually every evil. In the context of the Depression, it probably seemed so to many. Distrust of the wealthy, and fear of the internationalism of some of them is still widespread among many Catholics in the U.S., as it is among many non-Catholics. Jewish names are usually recognizable, and the names of powerful Jews stick in the mind in a way that the names of others often do not. But again, it is not really Jewish-specific with most.

Certain Catholic pundits like Pat Buchanan are accused of anti-semitism, though I think the accusation is unfair. As a semi-isolationist, Buchanan believes much American foreign policy is designed in Tel Aviv, and considers the Iraq war an example of a ruinous enterprise undertaken by America at the behest of Israel. I personally don’t believe that, but it is certainly true that the U.S. has suffered for its support of Israel. Many Trads are sympatico with Buchanan and those like him, though for other reasons. But that’s really more a variant of isolationism than it is anti-semitism. Buchanan and many Trads dislike France even more than they dislike Israel. Interestingly, the Catholic left shares this “ersatz anti-semitism” with the right, but for different reasons. The left’s self-image as the supporters of the downtrodden, and usual opposition to American foreign policy on principle, has led them to take up the Palestinian cause, and oppose everything Israel thinks, says or does. I don’t think that’s true anti-semitism either, but it sometimes across that way.

Again, I can’t answer for the beliefs of all Trads. I am sympathetic with much of what they espouse, but am not a thoroughgoing Trad myself. No doubt some Trads, and some libs, really are anti-semitic. But I don’t think most are. I agree, however, that it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between some of the positions of both the right and the left from true anti-semitism.

[quote=romancrusader]Look at Madonna. She is pretty much the prime example of an immoral atheist Hollywood Jew.

:rotfl: :ehh: **ahem… it may interest you to know that Madonna was raised in a very strict irish roman catholic family, complete with private catholic school. And she’s not Jew now either. She’s Buddist type of something or other… at least that was the last religion I heard she was trying on for size.:stuck_out_tongue: **

“Madonna” (I think its blasphemous for her to call herself that) may have been raised Catholic, but she rejected the Church and rejected the one true God. She is one of the worst blasphemers on the planet today.

Now she is part of Kabbala, which is a sort of psuedo-Jewish cult thing. Lots of dumb Hollywood types are involved in Kabbalah. “Madonna” actually brings her rabbi to all of her concerts.

It can’t be blasphemous if it’s your name. Madonna was literally Christened Madonna. And I thought she was Italian Catholic, it’s like Irish Catholic, just the food’s better.

Kabala is not a pseudo-Jewish cult any more than Christian Mysticism is a pseudo-Christian cult!

Oh. I didn’t know that was her literal name. My error. I assumed it was just an attempt by her at being sacreligious, as that seems to be her style.

And come on, most observant Jews don’t even take Kabbalah seriously! Its like scientology, filled with Hollywood airheads.

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