I have true Peace


#21

[quote=kaycee]Actually Faith is a gift.
John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” I was part of the “No one can” were’nt you?

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Peace
[/quote]

I agree. Grace is the free gift of God that draws us to him, but we can reject that gift. That is where free will comes in. Isn’t it wonderful to find out how much that we have in common? It seems that you believe-at least as far as the concept of grace goes-the exact same thing as Catholics.:slight_smile:

WHew!! Its late. Goodnight y’all. And again welcome to the forum Kaycee. You sound like a very nice woman.


#22

I think it’s similar to marriage.
We tell each other we love each other, and we say our vows.

But what do we DO to back it up?
Do we stay faithful? Do we encourage and support our spouse?
Do we build them up or tear them down?

What good does it do to say “I love you” to a spouse, and then commit unloving acts? How many unfaithful spouses tell their partner…“I love you” - and how hollow are the words?

And when a faithful loving spouse says “I love you” - how much more meaningful.

I think faith and the way we live has a similar relationship.


#23

[quote=deb1]I agree. Grace is the free gift of God that draws us to him, but we can reject that gift. That is where free will comes in. Isn’t it wonderful to find out how much that we have in common? It seems that you believe-at least as far as the concept of grace goes-the exact same thing as Catholics.:slight_smile:

WHew!! Its late. Goodnight y’all. And again welcome to the forum Kaycee. You sound like a very nice woman.
[/quote]

My voice is a little deeper than that! :smiley:


#24

<< Ephesians speaks the truth. Catholics do not believe that they work to attain God’s grace. We do works because of God’s grace. >>

Ah ha, but Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy BOTH absolutely contradict John 6:44. :rolleyes: :smiley:

John 6:44 “No one comes to me unless the Father draws him” = the elect who God draws, but we can’t know absolutely whether we are of the elect

John 12:32 “I will draw all men to myself” = Christ draws all in some sense (maybe reference to the resurrection, where all are judged according to their works, John 5:28-29; Matt 16:27; 25:31-46; Romans 2:5-10; etc).

1 Tim 2:3-6 “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men…”

Read John 6:44 with John 12:32 with 1 Tim 2:3-6, a dash of John 3:3-7; 1 Cor 6:11; sprinkle with 1 Peter 3:21; Gal 5:6; Romans 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8; add a cup of James 2 in your salvation recipe, cook for a few hours, on high :smiley: and you get…

  1. Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life…

  2. Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

  3. Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

Phil P


#25

If you are going to quote Ephesians then do not take it out of context…

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Do not forget the next verse…
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And I will stress…contrary to what Jack Chick and others may say Catholics have never, and do not teach that you work your way into heaven.
We are saved by God’s Grace alone…Though you might have left Catholicism because you didn’t understand it, doesn’t mean that you should listen to people that say we believe that Catholics earn our way into heaven, that is a very common accusation that people use to lure people out of the Church.

God Bless and welcome to the forum…
Scylla


#26

[quote=RedDeathsMask]Actually Lutherans and Catholics believe salvation is attained in the same way, the terminology is just different.
[/quote]

Thank you. Of course, this is counter to popular belief. People kill each other because of word games.

Ever since the Tower of Babel, we humans love to stand in violent agreement. We can’t even agree on something without trying to cling to our differences in case we need to use them against our brothers.

Alan


#27

Kaycee, I was like you for over 34 years after leaving the Catholic Church, but about 4 years ago someone alleged something about the church that I knew was wrong so I spoke up & was put down for it, so I began to dig deeply into what the church really teaches to see if I was wrong.

I found that I had been deceived by the non-Catholic churches that I had been part of both about what the church believes and what real New Testament Christianity is like and I “re-verted” to Catholicism.

The very things you have posted in this thread show that you don’t really know what you were supposed to believe as a Catholic because you allege beliefs that we do not hold.

I urge you to honestly and courageously check into the real teachings of our most holy faith from someone like the The Catholic Home Study Service and see the truth for yourself. The courses are FREE.
Pax tecum,


#28

[quote=kaycee]Absolutely, all good things come from GOD! However to stay in a state of grace requires you to stay clear from mortal sin. That is work is it not?
[/quote]

So you plan on continuing to sin? That is a rejection of God in itself. I pray that you intend to never sin again, even though you may fall sometimes.


#29

[quote=scylla]If you are going to quote Ephesians then do not take it out of context…

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Do not forget the next verse…
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
[/quote]

:eek: Don’t believe I did. My point was salvation is a gift, even the faith to believe.

Phil 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

And I will stress…contrary to what Jack Chick and others may say Catholics have never, and do not teach that you work your way into heaven.

I don’t do Chick.


#30

[quote=scylla]If you are going to quote Ephesians then do not take it out of context…

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Do not forget the next verse…
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
[/quote]

:eek: Don’t believe I did. My point was salvation is a gift, even the faith to believe.

Phil 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

And I will stress…contrary to what Jack Chick and others may say Catholics have never, and do not teach that you work your way into heaven.

I don’t do Chick.


#31

[quote=kaycee]:eek: Don’t believe I did. My point was salvation is a gift, even the faith to believe.

Phil 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

I don’t do Chick.
[/quote]

Hello,

I am trying not to misunderstand you. Do you not think that faith is an act? Do you think that faith does not require free will?


#32

[quote=kaycee]Absolutely, all good things come from GOD! However to stay in a state of grace requires you to stay clear from mortal sin. That is work is it not?
[/quote]

Yes! That is work! As Paul reminds us: “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” But it is not “works righteousness.” It is being in an active and living relationship with Christ, receiving his grace with every breath we draw, in gratitude and love.

I suspect that what you interpret as “peace” is actually only relief – and you have that sense of relief because you believe you have been “freed” from something that never bound you in the first place – your own mistaken idea of what the Church teaches (you and a million others who for whatever reason never were taught or never took the trouble to ask our holy mother, the Church, for the answers that only she can give . . .)

Git’ cherself on back here, Man!. We got a billion hugs for you. Jesus is coming for you.


#33

[quote=jimmy]So you plan on continuing to sin? That is a rejection of God in itself. I pray that you intend to never sin again, even though you may fall sometimes.
[/quote]

:eek: Were you replying to me?
1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

My point was in effect, you can be saved, lost, saved, lost, over and over again. Mortal sin is your roaring lion. That is hardly the Peace that God speaks of.

(CCC 1853).“The Church also tells us that the sins of anger, blasphemy, envy, hatred, malice, murder, neglect of Sunday obligation, sins against faith (incredulity against God or heresy), sins against hope (obstinate despair in the hope for salvation and/or presumption that oneself can live without God or be saved by one’s own power) and sins against love (indifference towards charity, ingratitude, and/or hatred of God) also constitute grave matter. This list of grave sins, is based on Jesus Christ’s interpretation of the gravity of the Ten Commandments. Grave sins can be classed as sins against God, neighbor and self, and can further be divided into carnal and spiritual sins (CCC 1853).”


#34

John also mentions that if you become a Christian and continue your old sins, there is no sacrifice for you. Clearly he means that you must change your life or you are bound for hell because the sacrifice of Christ will have no effect on you.


#35

Correction, it is Hebrews 10.

26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins,


#36

[quote=kaycee]:eek: Were you replying to me?
1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

My point was in effect, you can be saved, lost, saved, lost, over and over again. Mortal sin is your roaring lion. That is hardly the Peace that God speaks of.

I am thinking that we are in reality debating OSAS(once saved, always saved) again. The problem is that none of the verses that you quote counter the Catholic arguement. Of course, if you confess your sins then God will forgive you. Confession is an act, which means that you do something.

Here is another verse from 1 John 2:24-25** Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Father. And this is the promise that He has pomised us-eternal life.**
[/quote]


#37

[quote=deb1]Hello,

I am trying not to misunderstand you. Do you not think that faith is an act? Do you think that faith does not require free will?
[/quote]

It feels odd to be quoting myself.:slight_smile: You didn’t answer the above question and something that you said confused me. I just want to clear up the confusion. You do believe in free will don’t you and that faith requires free will?


#38

[quote=kaycee]:eek: Were you replying to me?
1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

My point was in effect, you can be saved, lost, saved, lost, over and over again. Mortal sin is your roaring lion. That is hardly the Peace that God speaks of.

(CCC 1853).“The Church also tells us that the sins of anger, blasphemy, envy, hatred, malice, murder, neglect of Sunday obligation, sins against faith (incredulity against God or heresy), sins against hope (obstinate despair in the hope for salvation and/or presumption that oneself can live without God or be saved by one’s own power) and sins against love (indifference towards charity, ingratitude, and/or hatred of God) also constitute grave matter. This list of grave sins, is based on Jesus Christ’s interpretation of the gravity of the Ten Commandments. Grave sins can be classed as sins against God, neighbor and self, and can further be divided into carnal and spiritual sins (CCC 1853).”
[/quote]

Hi kaycee,

I’m sorry if you find that the prospect of being able to reject the unmerited gift of grace is unpeaceful for you. That’s not relevant. What matters is that it’s true.

Hell is unpeaceful, but do you also reject Christ’s repeated teaching on that?

I’d rather you be united to God than be unrealistically peaceful for your short stay on Earth. :slight_smile:


#39

One more thought. Would you like to see what the earliest Christians thought on this matter?:

catholic.com/library/Mortal_Sin.asp


#40

Kaycee,

I posted this last month on another thread, but with the theology you now espouse it seems appropriate to repeat my earlier post:

When the Catholic child who does not receive the love of God mediated by the family comes across the teaching of the catechism which presumes it! about the conditions for persevering in salvation-begun and not losing it, he will misinterpret Catholicism and miss seeing the whole. He will be very prone to oversimplifying and thus take the stick figure alternative of Protestant belief as truth and think he’s not only better off, but superior in understanding Revelation. He’ll come out with platitudes naively asserted about “no conditions”. It is childish, but it calms the exaggerated fears of the past which distorted seeing things right in the first place. It is a premature “peace,” really a psychological-emotional overcoming of morbid fear about salvation. But it is also an unaware presumption of being right about Revelation because of the subjective role such over-simplification brings in eliminating self-centered worry.

He will have little awareness that the solution he comes up with is still highly self-centered, because he has swung from thinking everything depended on himself to please God and avert condemnation (hopelessness) to everything depends on God alone (guaranteed!) and relieves him of having any responsibility for his own eventual salvation and presumes God has chosen him. As a result, he confuses his own judgments about Scripture and Revelation with the Holy Spirit (since he doesn’t do anything in attaining salvation, except believe, of course, which is the illogical exception), so it must be the Holy Spirit, not him. Also, he will swing from the excessive fear of punishment for wrongdoing to no punishment at all for future sins for those who believe (because Christ took all that on Himself in place of our going through it, ignoring the glaring reality that we still die and suffer before death!).

This self-satisfied “peace” makes it easy for him to judge the Church (which is blamed for error that caused him painful fear before, conveniently avoiding any consideration that he had defects of psyche and/or upbringing by his parents, e.g., such a simple one of non-communication about important things like how one understands God. Oversimplification about salvation carried over to Scripture “alone” is understood by the individual, but seen as God the Holy Spirit telling on the Truth, against which every other belief, beit of the Universal Church even, is judged and rejected if contrary. Such people never rise to sanctity; indeed, they never even become proficients in the spiritual life, and their use of the sacraments - if they remain in the Church is really not as Catholics, but Protestants with distorted interpretation - and thus profit them little. Their lack of self-knowledge is astounding. They consider themselves equal to the Saints, or rather, more often just don’t look at the Saints lest those examples of heroic love of God show them up as infantile and simplistic. How comfortable is their ignorance and how pitiful. It strengthens their presumption of being right, increases their pride without their even noticing it.

In contrasting summary, we are saved by the grace (God’s choice) through faith leading to Baptism within the Church and moved by the charity of the Holy Spirit putting into practice the life of the virtues, with the aid of the Sacraments, gradually deepening into a holiness which if not attained in this life will be in the next by purification of post-baptismal sin of commission or omission, confident that God will bring to completion what He has begun in us, not presuming it is done already without our cooperation. A humble trust in God and distrust in self, combined with active participation, is the simple-complex reality.


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