I hit the Baptists with this..now it's the Catholics turn!


#1

I have been asking Baptists this question for years and all they can do is call me a heretic or spout some line about “reunion of body and soul”.

If the dead are already in Heaven or Hell (or Purg in your case) what is the point in the Resurrection??
Why be dragged down from Heaven, stuck in a body, judged and then sent right back?
I am beginning to believe that those Heretics in the JW, SDA etc. may be onto something with their “Soul Sleep” ramblings.
WP


#2

I suggest this…it is a good starting point
newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm


#3

Soul Sleep?

Check this thread out.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=111228


#4

The souls of the dead go straight to heaven, hell or purgatory. Christ said to the good thief ‘this day you will be with me in paradise’ - not tomorrow or 5 years from now or 5,000 years from now.

And he said to the writer of Revelations ‘I am coming soon’ - for the soul of that individual writer, who was near the end of his earthly life. Again, not ‘2000-odd years from now or more I will come for you, and of course I will come for everyone else who’s ever lived at the same time’.

Now obviously the second coming hasn’t happened yet and the bodies of the dead haven’t been raised yet. Yet many have had near death experiences - where their souls briefly experience a taste of eternity. Why would this be the case if their destiny after bodily death was to sleep for however many years?

Clearly bodies do not follow the soul until all who are destined to live on earth have had the chance to do so. Your body will be reunited with your soul, doesn’t mean your soul will be ‘dragged back down’, simply that your resurrected body will join with it in whatever eternal destiny awaits it.

Very simply, those who are faithful to Christ in life are promised ETERNAL life - not years of soul-sleep and THEN eternal life.


#5
  1. Why will the bodies of the just rise?

The bodies of the just will rise to share forever in the glory of their souls.

(b) After the resurrection the bodies of the just will be in a glorified state. There will then be no need for food and drink to preserve the body, which will be endowed with qualities it did not possess in this life.

  1. Why will the bodies of the damned also rise?

The bodies of the damned will also rise to share in the eternal punishment of their souls.

(a) Since the body is the instrument of the soul in committing sin, it is just that the body also share in eternal punishment.

The Second Coming of the Lord and the Last Judgment
by Father William Saunders

Our Lord in the Gospel spoke of His second coming. He indicated that various signs would mark the event. Mankind would suffer from famine, pestilence and natural disasters. False prophets who claim to be the Messiah will deceive and mislead people. Nations will wage war against each other. The Church will endure persecution. Worse yet, the faith of many will grow cold and they will abandon the faith, even betraying and hating one another. (Confer Mt. 24:4-14; Lk 17:22-37) St. Paul describes a “mass apostasy” before the Second Coming, which will be led by the “son of perdition,” the “Man of Lawlessness,” the “adversary who exalts himself above every so-called god proposed for worship.” This “lawless one” is part of the work of Satan, and with power, signs, wonders and seductions will bring to ruin those who have turned from the truth. However, “the Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and annihilate him by manifesting His own presence.” (Cf. 2 Thes 2:3-12) The Catechism affirms, “God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the last judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world” (No. 667). Our Lord will come suddenly. “The Son of Man in His day will be like the lightening that flashes from one end of the sky to the other” (Lk 17:24). St. Peter predicts, “The day of the Lord will come like a thief and on that day the heavens will vanish with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire and the earth and all its deeds will be made manifest” (2 Pt 3:10).

Death will be no more. The dead shall rise and those souls who have died will be united again to their bodies. All will have a glorious, transformed, spiritualized body as St. Paul said, “He will give a new form to this lowly body of ours and remake it according to the pattern of His glorified body…” (Phil 3:21).

At this time, the final, or general judgment will occur. Jesus said, “Those who have done right shall rise to life; the evildoers shall rise to be damned” (Jn 5:29). Our Lord described this judgment as follows: “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, escorted by all the angels of heaven, He will sit upon His royal throne and all the nations will be assembled before Him. Then He will separate them into two groups, as a shepherd separated sheep from goats” (Mt 25:31-32).

Here each person will have to account for his conduct and the deepest secrets of his soul will come to light. How well each person has responded to the prompting of God’s grace will be made clear. Our attitude and actions toward our neighbor will reflect how well we have loved our Lord. “As often as you did it for one of My least brothers, you did it for Me” (Mt 25:41).

Our Lord will judge us accordingly. For those who have died and already have faced the particular judgment, their judgment will stand. Those living at the time of the Second Coming will receive judgment. Those who have rejected the Lord in this life, who have sinned mortally, who have no remorse for sin and do not seek forgiveness, will have condemned themselves to hell for all eternity. "By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love (Catechism, No. 678). The souls of the righteous will enter heavenly glory and enjoy the beatific vision and those who need purification will undergo it.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed.
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/teaching.htm


#6

You folks could have just said “We agree with the Baptists”:smiley:
WP


#7
    ** SO BE IT!**

#8

If that’s what the Baptists believe, then they are right on this. That’s totally **different **from not having an answer at all, as your original post charged. You may not *like *the answer or agree with it, but that’s up to you. :slight_smile:


#9

Actually,I find this much more interesting about heaven and hell

ucg.org/booklets/HL/HL.pdf


#10

Christians in general agree on the universal resurrection of both the just and the unjust, because it is taught all over the New Testament, and also less ubiquitously in the Old Testament.

But I have found that most Christians have not really asked the great question you seem to be asking in this thread: “What good is a physical body in the afterlife?”

The bible is very clear that God the Father created everything, physical and spiritual, for Jesus and for us. It is His gift to us.

Once we are separated from our bodies, we no longer have access to the physical dimensions of creation. After the resurrection of the just (the first resurrection), our glorious bodies will have tremendous physical and spiritual powers and abilities. Ever wish you could be Superman? Well, if you come forth in the first resurrection, you will be even more powerful that Kal-El on his best day. All of the universe will be yours to explore and enjoy.

Jesus taught that we could never imagine the wonders that the Father has prepared for those who love Him.

Paul


#11

Your question can be asked both ways.

Why be awakened from the grave, stuck in a body, judged and then sent to heaven? or destroyed?

Bottom line, those in heaven at this “time” gets to enjoy being with God. What better place to be? that “time” from there perspective is only seconds at best because they are really outside of the deminsions of time and space as we know them.

then there is the eternalists position aka “middle knowledge”

think of all time as being represented by a line on a sheet of paper that God is looking at. From God’s perspective all is in the eternal now, no time. ( yes, this is from C. S. Lewis ).

now picture a person dying, they step out of time as we know it, go straight to the end of time ( our future ) to be resurrected, judged and rewarded or not, thus no middle state either waiting in heaven or sleeping in the grave. If you read the accounts of heaven you can not say that the people there are not in their resurrected bodies because there is NO TIME IN HEAVEN.

Hebrews 9:27 (Contemporary English Version)
We die only once, and then we are judged.

Robertson’s Word Pictures of the New Testament

It is appointed (apokeitai). Present middle (or passive) of apokeimai, “is laid away” for men. Cf. same verb in Luke 19:20; Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 4:8 (Paul’s crown). Once to die (apax apoqanein). Once for all to die, as once for all to live here. No reincarnation here. After this cometh judgement (meta touto krisiß). Death is not all. Man has to meet Christ as Judge as Jesus himself graphically pictures (Matthew 25:31-46; John 5:25-29).

Also, take into account that the New Earth, christians will live on the earth.

It boils down to how do you view heaven? What does the “eternal now” mean in your thinking?

I see no problem with someone dying anywhere on that line of time on that sheet of paper, and going to the end of the time line for the resurrection, judgement and heaven.

concerning the “today, you will be with me in paradise”, paradise was simply the good side of the grave. see Luke 16, at the resurrection of Jesus ( eph 4, phil 2, I think ) Jesus led everyone who was in paradise side of the grave to heaven.

So, it does not really matter if one waits in paradise side of the grave or if they wait in heaven since there is no such thing as time in heaven.


#12

Why the Resurrected body?

1 Corinthians 15

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.” 33Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

The Resurrection Body

35But someone may ask,** “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”** 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, **so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. **

50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?" 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

The Resurrection is victory over death, our new bodies will be immortal.

We will have acess to the tree of life.


#13

When Jesus died, he preached to those in the grave, thus those in the grave are conscious of their surroundings. ( see also Isaiah 14 those in the grave sit up to greet one another ).

1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 4:6 (New King James Version)
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

when Jesus rose from the dead, he also rose up those in the paradise side of the grave,

Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

later he took them to heaven in their resurrected bodies,

Ephesians 4:8 (New King James Version)

Therefore He says:
“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

So, is it better for one to rot in the grave or be in the prescence of God himself?


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