I know this is BAD! using Contraception


#1

I know I need to go to confession but before I tell you what I’m doing I need to say I’m findoing out a lot of Catholics are doing the same thing and don’t feel the least bit guilty, plus my mother and many other Catholics that are older say aaahhhh don’t worry about it everyone does that now, it ain’t like the old days.

My wife and I just had our 1st baby 3 months ago and we love him and love being new parents. However, with the costs of a new baby and my wife staying at home we are doing everything we can to prevent having anymore kids until at least 2 yrs. Of course that means me using protection. Like I said I felt apprehensive myself but when every other Catholic I know does the same thing and my Mother and Father who are in their early 70’s are telling me either she goes back to work or she goes on the pill, you can’t afford another child at this point. Mind you these are 2 people who are born and bred Catholics. The thing about it is, I don’t feel a lot of guilt about it because it is stressful enough financially with 1, I can’t imagine 2,3,4 more kids.

I know I will get bashed from some or most but is ther anyone out there who is going through what I am?? I mean saving for retirement, house payment, saving for son’s college. I make a modest income and we have no debt but the house. So we are not spending carelessly, I just don’t see how some people do it making 40-50K with 2-3 kids. I will not go into DEBT FOR ANYTHING!!


#2

So use NFP. It’s not that hard and that way you’re not commiting a serious sin. It should be a win/win.

It is tough. Especially with your first. The reason you don’t want to have another baby now is probably by God’s design. He didn’t design humans to have new humans every 12 months. So, you’re desire to avoid pregnancy right now is totally understandable and not disordered. Pray about this and find an NFP class and space your children in accord with God’s will. You will be happier because of it.

God bless.

PS…as for the debt comment. Some things are worth a little debt. Don’t be so afraid of it.


#3

Instead of violating Church law, learn to economize and practice Natural Family Planning, which is not based on the old rhythm methods but the latest scientific knowledge. Couple to Couple League.

There are hundreds of ways to save money that aren’t chintzy or cheap :wink: , and NFP is more effective than any other “protection” out there, including the pill.


#4

NFP or Creighton is your obligation.

You know you’re wrong to use contraception.
You are not comfortable doing so, thus this thread.
Now, listen to our advice and do the right thing.

This is a great time to establish a solid foundation for your marriage rooted in God. If you don’t understand the Church’s teachings against contraceptives then study it.

Sit down with your wife, hold hands, and pray. Thank Him for bringing each other into your lives, for the gift of your child, and for your marriage. Ask Him for strength and courage to do His will at all times. Ask Him to send the Holy Spirit to help you and your wife understand the this issue through the research you’re about to do.

So, ‘many’ Catholics use contraceptives and easily dismiss the magesterium of the church, and thus the grace of God in their lives. Why would you want this for yourself, or for your wife, whom you love more than life itself?

Below are several links to get you started. Explore them, visit the links on their sites, find seminars and events to attend together. It will greatly enhance your marriage and the love you two share.

Vatican website

USCCB Marriage and Family

Humanae Vitae

Theology of the Body - EWTN

Theology of the Body.net

Christopher West audio

Couple to Couple League

Creighton Model

Natural Family Planning


#5

[quote=uofl19] I know I need to go to confession but before I tell you what I’m doing I need to say I’m findoing out a lot of Catholics are doing the same thing and don’t feel the least bit guilty, plus my mother and many other Catholics that are older say aaahhhh don’t worry about it everyone does that now, it ain’t like the old days.
[/quote]

Yes, those on the path to hell like lots of company so they try to convince you it’s OK to sin. Don’t listen to them. It doesn’t matter if “everyone is doing it”… it’s still wrong.

[quote=uofl19] My wife and I just had our 1st baby 3 months ago and we love him and love being new parents.
[/quote]

Congratulations.

[quote=uofl19] However, with the costs of a new baby and my wife staying at home we are doing everything we can to prevent having anymore kids until at least 2 yrs. Of course that means me using protection.
[/quote]

“Of course” it means no such thing. “Protection” is “contraception” and that is never a moral choice. There are morally valid ways to space and plan a family. Contraception is not one of them.

[quote=uofl19] Like I said I felt apprehensive myself but when every other Catholic I know does the same thing
[/quote]

You have it sooo wrong. Sinning in company with others is still sinning.

[quote=uofl19] and my Mother and Father who are in their early 70’s are telling me either she goes back to work or she goes on the pill, you can’t afford another child at this point.
[/quote]

Your family planning is NONE of their business. My parents do not give me orders about my family or whether or not I work, or my husband works, and certainly NOT on the number or spacing of my children.

[quote=uofl19] Mind you these are 2 people who are born and bred Catholics.
[/quote]

And, they are wrong.

[quote=uofl19] The thing about it is, I don’t feel a lot of guilt about it because it is stressful enough financially with 1, I can’t imagine 2,3,4 more kids.
[/quote]

You don’t feel guilty because you are contracepting? Habitual sin dulls the senses and the conscience.

[quote=uofl19] I know I will get bashed from some or most but is ther anyone out there who is going through what I am??
[/quote]

Telling the Truth is not bashing. If you want someone to approve of you using contraception so you can feel better, you’ve come to the wrong place.

[quote=uofl19] I mean saving for retirement, house payment, saving for son’s college. I make a modest income and we have no debt but the house. So we are not spending carelessly, I just don’t see how some people do it making 40-50K with 2-3 kids. I will not go into DEBT FOR ANYTHING!!
[/quote]

So, what is it you’re looking for? Approval to contracept? There is no Catholic teaching that says you have to have many children. There is no teaching that says children must come on the heals of each other. Your baby is young-- you do not need to have another right away if you have a serious reason to avoid another child.

BUT, that does not mean contraception is the answer. I’d suggest going to www.omsoul.com and reading up on Catholic teaching and natural family planning.

Visit www.ccli.org for information on natural family planning classes in your area.


#6

You’re placing too much emphasis on material things. The bible says not to worry about what you will eat, drink or wear because God knows you need these things. You must trust God.

My husband and I have 5 children and our income is <30K/yr. We get by very well through the grace of God. We own a house and a mini-van and we are well fed. I buy gently used clothes for the children and gratefully accept hand-me-downs. My kids have tons of toys, books, etc. (too much actually!) which I get for little or no cost. The sacrifices we make in lifestyle are made up by a rich spiritual life… It’s 100% worth the effort! :slight_smile:

I would not trade any material thing in the world for one of my children. When you contracept for the purposes of using that money for something else, something “wordly”, it is as if you are trading in your child (the child you could have had) for a house, or a college fund, etc. Material things come and go, but a child is forever. It’s our job to find ways to live in the world but be not of it… this world is not our true home.

Hope this helps!


#7

you say you know it is bad - then WHY are you doing it? to please others and yourself? shouldn’t you be more concerned about pleasing GOD? to know something is a mortal sin and to still commit that sin intentionally makes you guilty of mortally sinning. do you even know what that means? just in case you’ve forgotten - that means that if you died unrepentant, you would be at enmity with God for this sin. enemies of God do not go to heaven. they don’t even get into Purgatory, my friend.

sorry to give you such a bad time, but since you have acknowledged the fact that you know what you are doing is bad, there’s not much room for any sympathy.


#8


[font=Arial]Answering Four Common Objections About Contraception and Natural Family Planning
[/font]
By Sarah F. Peterson

                                                    ***Openness to life will strengthen and sanctify your marriage. Contraception will weaken and endanger it.***


                       [font=Verdana]IN THE MORE than five years I have been teaching and speaking about Natural Family Planning (NFP), I've found that people everywhere have the same questions and concerns.[/font]

                        [font=Verdana]Sometimes their comments or questions are pejorative, but more often, they are just genuinely curious and honestly want to understand why the Catholic Church — virtually alone — continues to teach that contraception and sterilization are always gravely immoral.[/font]

                        [font=Verdana]The Catholic Church’s teachings on family planning are logical, consistent and wonderfully liberating when properly understood, yet they are rejected by the overwhelming majority of Catholics.[/font]

                        [font=Verdana]The frequency with which I hear the              same objections and the shocking *             *infrequency** with which this topic is competently addressed in homilies, marriage preparation and RCIA programs leads me to believe that a significant part of the problem is that people simply haven’t had their very reasonable questions adequately addressed and can’t find anyone who is willing and able do so.[/font]

                        [font=Verdana]Here are the four objections I hear most often and the responses I have found to be most helpful. Learn them and be ready the next time someone challenges *             *you** about Catholic              family planning.

[/font]

[font=Verdana]more…
[/font]


#9

test


#10

Congratulations on your little one! http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

A couple thoughts:

Just because everyone is doing something wrong doesn’t make it right.

NFP is highly effective if used correctly.

Finally, there really is little cost associated with a healthy second child. You already have the house, the crib and the clothes. You can use cloth diapers which can be used by both children and breastfeeding is absolutely free. Our second child was an “oops” and was born 19 months after our first. It was stressful for us to think about how we were going to provide for him because, like you, we had planned to wait 2 years before trying to conceive again. However, once he was born, I realized that we didn’t need to buy a single thing for him. True, college is an immense expense but there are scholarships and loans available and the Lord provides to those who trust in Him. Unless you are living on the street or do not have money for basic food items, money should not be a reason to reject God’s blessings.


#11

[quote=uofl19]I know I need to go to confession but before I tell you what I’m doing I need to say I’m findoing out a lot of Catholics are doing the same thing and don’t feel the least bit guilty, plus my mother and many other Catholics that are older say aaahhhh don’t worry about it everyone does that now, it ain’t like the old days.

My wife and I just had our 1st baby 3 months ago and we love him and love being new parents. However, with the costs of a new baby and my wife staying at home we are doing everything we can to prevent having anymore kids until at least 2 yrs. Of course that means me using protection. Like I said I felt apprehensive myself but when every other Catholic I know does the same thing and my Mother and Father who are in their early 70’s are telling me either she goes back to work or she goes on the pill, you can’t afford another child at this point. Mind you these are 2 people who are born and bred Catholics. The thing about it is, I don’t feel a lot of guilt about it because it is stressful enough financially with 1, I can’t imagine 2,3,4 more kids.

I know I will get bashed from some or most but is ther anyone out there who is going through what I am?? I mean saving for retirement, house payment, saving for son’s college. I make a modest income and we have no debt but the house. So we are not spending carelessly, I just don’t see how some people do it making 40-50K with 2-3 kids. I will not go into DEBT FOR ANYTHING!!
[/quote]

Not for financial reasons, but I have five children and a good income. I am able to stay home without stressing about the bills. However, I almost died having the last baby and have over an 80% chance of it happening again. I can’t imagine that God would give me these children and not want me to be responsible and be there for them. My husband is also not a coper and not a Catholic. My husband had a vasectomy in May. While it wasn’t my ideal and I’d really have quite liked one more, I feel my children need me more than they need another sibling at this stage and with my husband not being a Catholic, I felt it was time to stop making him put it off and reluctantly ‘let him’ have a vasectomy. I’m afraid I don’t feel guilty. I feel relieved. The last baby was conceived using NFP (user failure) so we didn’t like that option. People keep saying to trust God but I trusted him last time! I can’t go into all the details here but I feel at peace with what has happened. I have confessed it even though I’m not sure it’s right to do it unless totally convinced it’s wrong. I just can’t seem to get my head around why it would be wrong.

The church wasn’t there after everything happened and the Catholic friends I have weren’t there - it is interesting to find out who your real friends are when something like that happens.

Apparently NFP use is only 1% higher among Catholics than in the general population. So you are far from alone.

I do agree that any birth control used should be non-abortifacient and if I got pregnant I would never have an abortion no matter what. But barrier methods are different. I see a difference between preventing a life starting and ending one already begun.

Good luck to you.


#12

[quote=mumto5]I’m afraid I don’t feel guilty. I feel relieved.
[/quote]

So long as we understand ‘feeling’ guilty has no effect on whether or not we are guilty. Guilt is not a ‘feeling’. It is the result of making the wrong decision. We can make wrong decisions and not feel guilty, just as we can make good decisions and still feel guilty (for example, breaking up with someone for the right reasons).

You say you went to confession about it, that’s good. And you question how effective that confession is if you really don’t understand what was wrong with the decision in the first place…that’s also good, that you question the effectiveness. I’d question it too.

The last baby was conceived using NFP (user failure) so we didn’t like that option.

People keep saying to trust God but I trusted him last time!

The two statements are contradictory. The second implies God failed you when you trusted in Him, but the first states the ‘failure’ was human.

If indeed you and your husband misread the signs then God did not fail you.

If you and your husband did everything by the book and still conceived then God still didn’t fail you, as you are God’s work, as are your children. You do not belong to you. You belong to Him, to do His will, not yours. When your will is the same as His, life is smooth sailing…it’s when your will is contrary to His that things start to go ‘wrong’…but they go wrong because of our own doing, not His.

Though I do understand your reasoning - God wouldn’t have blessed you with these wonderful children and then take you from them. I’ve had these thoughts as well, and yet, when I do, I think about the various widowers I know whose wives were indeed taken, from illness or car accidents, leaving their children behind.

Apparently God does will, at times, to have the children raised by their earthly fathers while allowing their birth mothers to care for them from heaven. These men grew tremendously because of their loss. Their children grew up strong and compassionate. I’ve learned through their experiences that the death of the mother does not automatically result in a tragic life for the child. That has enabled me to raise my children to be independent. I have never promised I will always be here for them, as that is up to God, not me, but I **have **promised I will always be by their side, whether here on earth or from heaven. They are 15 and 17 now, and still thank me for being honest with them about that.

The church wasn’t there after everything happened and the Catholic friends I have weren’t there - it is interesting to find out who your real friends are when something like that happens.

I’ve heard this from other friends and it always seems to puzzle me. What does that mean? The Church wasn’t there?

The Church is always there…the masses are available, adoration is available, ministries are available.

Are you really talking about the Church not being there, or certain members of the Church whom you expected more from and yet who let you down? If that’s the case then those **people **weren’t there…it wasn’t the Church.


#13

I have to agree 150% with YinYangMom. Well said!!!

Don’t assume having more than one child on any income is hard… yes certain amounts of money do make some issues easier, but it doesn’t equate parenthood to a walk in the park or a day in hell. It’s all a matter of having priorities and putting trust where it needs to be. God doesn’t give us the grace (or the means) to handle problems from a futuristic standpoint. He gives it to us when we need it. You can save up a million dollars to use for retirement and then get killed when you’re 40. So what’s the point of worrying about “what ifs?”

I won’t saying putting your faith and trust in God is easy. He knows how many times I’ve cried myself to sleep wondering how I’ll pay the bills. We’ve struggled for years with consumer debt and it’s been two steps forwards, one step back (sometimes three). But the more I struggle, the more I can look back and go "wow, God really did get us through that month. We “found” the money right when we needed it. And the more I struggle and can see these little times of grace… the more I realize who has my back.

As for the comment by one poster about her Catholic friends not being there when she needed them… I understand the confusion but you must find a way to forgive them and maybe look at your own actions in the situation. I say this because I have a friend that told me she felt isolated when she gave birth to her middle son… no one came to help her. I had to point out to her that any attempt at help was rebuked with severe scorn and criticism. I tried many times but my efforts were belittled, not perfect, not the way she wanted, etc. So I backed off until she was feeling better.

Good luck to the OP… I hope you can read through the information others have posted. I will pray for you and your wife in your struggle to do the right thing.
Peace
theresa


#14

It comes down to this:

Do you believe God wants you to be the best, most joyful version of yourself? If yes, then you gotta believe that the truths he has revealed in his church are going to contribute to that, not tear you down.

If somewhere inside you you suspect that God wants you to be burdened, miserable and troubled all your life and that’s why you are rejecting the church on this matter, then address that problem FIRST. The contraceptive issue will clear itself up once you have the first problem straight.


#15

[quote=uofl19]I just don’t see how some people do it making 40-50K with 2-3 kids. I will not go into DEBT FOR ANYTHING!!
[/quote]

I suppose it may depend on where you live. Housing is $$$ around my parts, yet it is definitely possible to do 4 kids on the amount you mention. You may have undisclosed burdens on your income, however…

I understand about the failure of Catholic relatives to back you up in right choices.:frowning: Do the right thing anyway. God is watching over you and his way is going to be the healthest for you and your family in the long run. We may not see how at the time, but my experience has been that the benefits are clear eventually. Having an upright Dad will pay dividends with your kids.

If you and your wife discern it is appropriate, abstinence for a time is a possibility.


#16

[quote=uofl19]I know I need to go to confession but before I tell you what I’m doing I need to say I’m findoing out a lot of Catholics are doing the same thing and don’t feel the least bit guilty, plus my mother and many other Catholics that are older say aaahhhh don’t worry about it everyone does that now, it ain’t like the old days.
[/quote]

And what church do they head?

[quote=]My wife and I just had our 1st baby 3 months ago and we love him and love being new parents. However, with the costs of a new baby and my wife staying at home we are doing everything we can to prevent having anymore kids until at least 2 yrs. Of course that means me using protection. Like I said I felt apprehensive myself but when every other Catholic I know does the same thing and my Mother and Father who are in their early 70’s are telling me either she goes back to work **or she goes on the pill, **you can’t afford another child at this point.
[/quote]

Which is it: You “using protection” or your wife on the pill?

And, exactly what kind of magic change do you think is going to happen in 2 years?

[quote=]Mind you these are 2 people who are born and bred Catholics. The thing about it is, I don’t feel a lot of guilt about it because it is stressful enough financially with 1, I can’t imagine 2,3,4 more kids.

I know I will get bashed from some or most but is ther anyone out there who is going through what I am?? I mean saving for retirement, house payment, saving for son’s college. I make a modest income and we have no debt but the house. So we are not spending carelessly, I just don’t see how some people do it making 40-50K with 2-3 kids. I will not go into DEBT FOR ANYTHING!!
[/quote]

Why are you able to budget your finances carefully, but yet, monitoring your wife’s fertility and abstaining from intercourse as you discern appropriate is not even mentioned?

I’ve thought about this post alot since it first appeared & tried to figure out exactly what it is that bothers me so much about it.

It would be one thing if the OP came on and asked for help as a new father, or asked for input re: figuring out reasons for spacing children, or any other similar topic that we’ve seen.

It would be another thing for him to come on and want to debate the morality of contraception; fine, that’s been done.

But to come on and simply say, “I know I need to go to confession, but I don’t feel guilty, and besides, plenty of OTHER people are doing it…” suggests a profound “in your face” attitude that feels like a slap in the face to me, a Catholic who has not only put the time & effort into learning why my faith teaches as it does about family life, but also the effort, prayer, self-giving and self-restraint required to plan my family in accordance with the faith I profess at each Sunday Mass.

[quote=]I know I will get bashed from some or most but is ther anyone out there who is going through what I am??
[/quote]

Maybe this is precisely why I am “bashing” you—because my husband and I are going through what you are. He works himself ragged so that I can stay home with our 1 year old.

And the thought of inserting contraception into our marriage would be as repugnant as a betrayal.


#17

[quote=YinYangMom]So long as we understand ‘feeling’ guilty has no effect on whether or not we are guilty. Guilt is not a ‘feeling’. It is the result of making the wrong decision. We can make wrong decisions and not feel guilty, just as we can make good decisions and still feel guilty (for example, breaking up with someone for the right reasons).

**No, actually, it wasn’t my decision. I have no reason to feel guilty. I’ve stopped my husband having a vasectomy ‘three children ago’ three times. I just ran out of reasons and with the OK of several priests, it’s kind of hard to argue. It wasn’t something I nominated. The only guilt I might have is by ommission - failing to fight it as I had done before. **

If indeed you and your husband misread the signs then God did not fail you.

**I’m not referring to the pregnancy. I wouldn’t be without my daughter at all. I’m referring to the birth and all that happened there. I had reason to be dubious after the warning signs the birth before. I trusted, it was much worse, I almost died. Most doctors are surprised I survived and did so well. **

Are you really talking about the Church not being there, or certain members of the Church whom you expected more from and yet who let you down? If that’s the case then those **people **weren’t there…it wasn’t the Church.

The church wasn’t there in a practical sense. It really opened my eyes that if I wasn’t there for my family anymore, the church wouldn’t be there to pick-up the slack on a day to day basis. Who would have had to cope, without support from the church? My husband and children. The church doesn’t help with the bills, the running of the household, or give my husband time out. We don’t have a lot of family here to help either. They weren’t there and had the worst happened, they still wouldn’t be there. Yet they try to tell me I have to put my life on the line again due to some rule that I just can’t understand despite a big effort to. I can’t feel I was wrong to ‘allow’ my husband to do what he wanted to do (bearing in mind he is not Catholic). I’m not saying the church owes us any help at all, but it seems wrong to make a rule and then not follow-up when that rule leads a family to a difficult situation. I believe in putting one’s money where one’s mouth is.
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#18

[quote=tamccrackine]. I understand the confusion but you must find a way to forgive them and maybe look at your own actions in the situation. I say this because I have a friend that told me she felt isolated when she gave birth to her middle son… no one came to help her. I had to point out to her that any attempt at help was rebuked with severe scorn and criticism. I tried many times but my efforts were belittled, not perfect, not the way she wanted, etc. So I backed off until she was feeling better.
[/quote]

Well, looking at my own actions, maybe if they’d come around with a meal or something I’d have had the chance to be grateful. A couple did visit me, which I was grateful for, but none were there to give me a shoulder to cry on in the months afterwards while I was dealing with the trauma. That fell to those who actually cared, from other churches by coincidence, and the support I had from them was awesome. One I can understand as she was expecting herself and I think preferred not to consider the possibilities. But the others had no excuses. I’d like to thank my Protestant friends for setting an example of Christly love.


#19

guilty. Guilt is not a ‘feeling’. It is the result of making the wrong decision. We can make wrong decisions and not feel guilty, just as we can make good decisions and still feel guilty (for example, breaking up with someone for the right reasons).

**No, actually, it wasn’t my decision. I have no reason to feel guilty. I’ve stopped my husband having a vasectomy ‘three children ago’ three times. I just ran out of reasons and with the OK of several priests, it’s kind of hard to argue. It wasn’t something I nominated. The only guilt I might have is by ommission - failing to fight it as I had done before. **

If indeed you and your husband misread the signs then God did not fail you.

**I’m not referring to the pregnancy. I wouldn’t be without my daughter at all. I’m referring to the birth and all that happened there. I had reason to be dubious after the warning signs the birth before. I trusted, it was much worse, I almost died. Most doctors are surprised I survived and did so well. **

Are you really talking about the Church not being there, or certain members of the Church whom you expected more from and yet who let you down? If that’s the case then those **people **weren’t there…it wasn’t the Church.

The church wasn’t there in a practical sense. It really opened my eyes that if I wasn’t there for my family anymore, the church wouldn’t be there to pick-up the slack on a day to day basis. Who would have had to cope, without support from the church? My husband and children. The church doesn’t help with the bills, the running of the household, or give my husband time out. We don’t have a lot of family here to help either. They weren’t there and had the worst happened, they still wouldn’t be there. Yet they try to tell me I have to put my life on the line again due to some rule that I just can’t understand despite a big effort to. I can’t feel I was wrong to ‘allow’ my husband to do what he wanted to do (bearing in mind he is not Catholic). I’m not saying the church owes us any help at all, but it seems wrong to make a rule and then not follow-up when that rule leads a family to a difficult situation. I believe in putting one’s money where one’s mouth is.

In the one sense I get what your saying, my husband is Lutheran and we are raising our children Catholic and I can’t have anymore children either due to almost losing my life during my 4th pregnancy and believe me, if we would have had a 5th child and God forbid I would have lost my life my husband already said he would then raise our kids in the Lutheran faith, hey, I’d be dead, so in that, then what? I’m gone and my kids are now Lutheran?
I believe that each person has to look at what the church teaches and then you need to pray, pray and pray and look at every way to figure out what you can do, in my case since my husband is not Catholic, he said, no NFP and NO abstaining and No more kids because honey I won’t lose you like this and my priest and my bishop both said, in this case, you must put your marriage first because to go against my husband in this would have caused a divorce. It is such a personal decision and for me I struggle with it on a daily basis and I have confessed my sins and now I’m letting go, I know that God knows exactly where and what is in my heart, he knows that if my husband was a faithful Catholic man who would have supported me in using NFP or abstince I never ever would have had my tubes tied but my husband is not Catholic and when I married him 13 yrs ago, I was a fallen away Catholic, I didn’t ever in my whole life think I would find myself at this point, but, I love the Catholic church and I’m just doing the very best that I can and I certainly will not pass judgement on anyone becuase I can’t know what it is like for them in their life, you just don’t know how hard it is when your husband or wife is not Catholic, you know, if I knew then what I knew now, oh, things would certainly have been different. So, I am very vocal in speaking to the youth in our parish about the huge importance of marrying a man or woman who is Catholic and if they are not, will be respect your Catholic faith when it comes to birth control matters? Will they agree to NFP and not change their mind later?
It really is so much easier when both are Catholic, boy, do I see that now :frowning:
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#20

Are you saying that it was the right thing to do, to get a tubal? So many things are easier if the man and wife are of the same religion!
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