I need to let out my frustation


#1

I have problems with the advice given by the one of the Apologists

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=162438

Particually this line

If you feel that it is symptomatic of a bigger problem, such as an unhealthy interest in goth culture, that would be a reason not to allow it.

I’ve already PMed the Apologist and hopefully it was just bad wording but I’m extremely offended here. (and I’m pretty sure i’m breaking some rule. I don’t want to get into trouble but I can’t ignore this)

Parents, reassure me that not everyone thinks this way. From what i’m deducing the Apologist is probably thinking of the drugs and satanist worship etc wrongly associated with goth culture. Again, I hope I’m just jumping the gun.

Maybe I need to explain my position a little better. I’m offended by the way the Apologist makes it sound as though gothic culture is evil and something children need to be protected from. This is not true. I wouldn’t be typing here if I had not found this culture. It gave me a sence of belonging and it revived my faith. I found my place, I found my identity. There is so much more I can say about this.

Anyway, I’m pretty sure there’s a few of you I haven’t met yet who have stories similer to mine. Just need a little bit of reasurence that not everyone thinks the stuff i’m into was brought about by the devil.


#2

I read the apologist’s response to the question and I did not get the idea that she was saying Goth culture should be avoided entirely.

I understood it to mean that parents have the right to step in if they think a child is too obsessed with Goth Culture. It could just as easily have been some other ‘culture’ such as sports or scholastics.

Parents have the right to keep a child from being involved in all sorts of things, even some of those that would generally be considered good for the child. (Obviously the parents have no right to keep a child from fulfilling his/her duty to God.)


#3

I think what the apologist meant by Goth Culture is an unhealthy interest in things that are “dark”. I’m sure if you were completely honest with yourself you know there are kind, loving people that prefer the Goth style of dress, music etc and then are those that lean toward things that are dark and not of God.

As a parent I have the right to limit what my child is exposed to. For example I would have no problem with my daughter listening to The Cure but I would have a problem with my daughter listening to Danzig -since Glen Danzig claims he is a satanic high priest I am not comfortable with her being exposed to his music.

Sometimes an interest in Goth-type things can draw a person into a deeper interest in things that are not of God. This is not an indictment all Goths but an honest look at what the culture *can *attract. I know this to be true because I have seen it first hand. Each parent knows their own child and needs to make a decision based on what they feel is their best interest. There’s no need to be offended.

You can not say that all things Goth are good, and holy and innocent. That doesn’t make all Goths in general satan worshippers or bad people. It means parents need to keep their eyes open to what their kids take interest in.


#4

I am probably not the best example for parents to hold up to their children as ‘goth is a-okay!’ :o

That said, goths are no more likely to be satanists or drug abusers than anyone else, and perhaps even slightly less so. There’s nothing inherently wrong with gloomy romanticism – it looks good, sounds good, and encourages education, empathy, and manners. Yes, there’s a tendency toward sensuality, but it can also build towards asceticism – and again, there’s nothing wrong with sensuality properly applied.


#5

And I would agree with this. But the culture itself is neutral. One cannot control the pratices of it’s adherents, unforchently. Which is true for everything inculding Catholicism, ie the sex abuse scandels. The OP choose poor wording if that was her true intent because the conculsion drawn is that it is wrong to be extrememly associated with gothic culture. Which I do belive was her intent because the thread was talking about black nail polish. You do not link “unhealthy interest” in goth culture to black nail polish. I can understand pentagrams (whole new story) and the like but this is makeup they sell in walmart for crying out loud. (Not that i’m crying out loud about it, lol) the only “Unhealthy interest” In goth culture I know of is Satanic worship, which isn’t a part of goth culture to begin with because there is no defining religion for goths.


#6

I think it’s important to point out that the Apologist was probably trying to give advice that covered all aspects that could be associated with this question, as she got only one shot to do so. On my first reading I took it to mean exactly what she said --> and unhealthy interest in goth…unhealthy being the operative term here. I’m sure you agree that an unhealthy interest would, rightly, be cause for concern.


#7

The apologist got it spot on. It is not the aunt’s business to decide if anything is wrong or right for the woman’s child. It is the parent’s business, and the Church does not make statements one way or another on Goth dress, including black nail polish. That said, the apologist went on to say that if the parent thought the teen was too obsessed with Goth, the parent had the right to tell the teen “no more”.

I had a nephew who was into Goth for his early high school career. Aside from the sight of black nail polish on a boy, it really didn’t do much to him. He was out of it within a year. On the other hand, for some other kid, it might not be a good thing. All the aplogist did was set the parent straight: The Church does not control this, but neither does the aunt.


#8

I had a nephew who was into Goth for his early high school career. Aside from the sight of black nail polish on a boy, it really didn’t do much to him. He was out of it within a year.

When I worked in a bookstore, we had a lot of Goth customers - they loved manga. I loved to wait on them because they were all nice and lots of fun to be around. Now, some of the little old lady customers we had…but I’d better not go there.


#9

an unhealthy interest in any fashion, music, celebrity, clothing style etc. is a spiritual danger and a psychological disorder, when it interferes with the proper practice of religion and rendering our duty to God, when it interferes with family relationships, when it makes an idol we worship in place of God, when it interferes with our normal life, activities, pleasures and duties. That could apply equally to being preppy, athletics, video games, popular artists, or even Girl Scouts. The writer is not condemning the “goth look or culture” per se, but anything that would damage these relationships and be an unhealthy influence in one’s life.


#10

I personally thought the response of the apologist was excellent. I find the OP position to be quite defensive.

I live in Alberta. In Medicine Hat, Alberta, there is currently a murder trial taking place in which a **12 year old girl and her 21 year old boyfriend murdered the girl’s mother, father, and 8 year old brother. ** The news coverage of the details of the murders is heartbreaking. Yes, the girl had gotten into the goth culture.

Earlier this year, there was a shooting rampage at a Canadian college, and yes, the perpetrator was also into goth.

I am not saying all goths are going to turn into killers. But there is something about the culture, in it’s desire to be contrary, countercultural, and dark that I find worrisome. I would definitely be worried if one of my kids became fascinated by goth. I believe that goth attracts some very troubled young people.

I am sure the OP has a healthy handle on their interest in goth, but that is not always the case with all goths.

imho


#11

And how many killings have been perpetrated by non-goths? Many, many, many more. That the kids were dressing like the Crow doesn’t make one jot of difference.

But there is something about the culture, in it’s desire to be contrary, countercultural, and dark that I find worrisome. I would definitely be worried if one of my kids became fascinated by goth. I believe that goth attracts some very troubled young people.

True enough; but would you rather a troubled young person got crazy hair, dressed in black, and moped along to Siouxsie and the Banshees – or self-destructed?

There’s nothing particularly contrary about it – countercultural yes, dark yes, but come on, there are yuppie goths these days! It’s not about rebellion, it’s art and self-expression.


#12

You know the apologist has to consider that there are many different ideas about what goth is. For some it is a way of dress and the friends one has… and at the other extreme… there are the vampire, satanic goths that I think we can all agree is not in line with Catholic thinking. She very appropriately stated:

[quote=Michelle Arnold]If you feel that it is symptomatic of a bigger problem, such as an unhealthy interest in goth culture, that would be a reason not to allow it. Either way, your sister should respect your authority as the child’s mother and not inappropriately interfere with how you raise your child.
[/quote]

Unhealthy being the operative term here. As far as i can see you could substitute baseball for goth, or even guitar playing… unhealthy is subjective and the opinion of the parent is what matters. If I felt my dd was obsessing about anything, I would limit that activity or object as to help her find a balance. I have a step daughter that imho is addicted to video games. So much so, that when I took away her gameboy, she used the tv remote to press buttons because she didn’t know how to function without her gameboy… it was an unhealthy obsession, so I limited her time (severely) with video games. This is what parents do, it doesn’t mean that the activity or object is evil or bad…just bad for that kid in the quantity that they involve themselves in it. Know what I mean???


#13

Whats Goth?


#14

Amen to both!! The question posted was about the goth culture, so it was answered specifically mentioning that. Anything put in the place of goth culture in this post and the answer is exactly the same! I’ll take it one step further. If my daughter was so interested in the programs on EWTN ( a very worthy pursuit, I think we can agree) that she was watching it so much that her homework was getting neglected and her report card reflected that, I would obviously have to have a conversation that although EWTN is wonderful and noble, homework cannot suffer and must get done. Obviously I’m taking this to an extreme, but only to make a point.

I do know that many people associate goth culture with satanism, vampirism, evil, etc. Many groups/organizations at one time or another have had an “evil label” slapped on them. One should try very hard to not take offense so easily and prove through their own actions that their choices are not evil. Actions always speak louder than words.

God bless!

Trish


#15

Goths have been around since my highschool days. Now, as a parent, I’d have to say that if you google “goth” there’s little I’d be thrilled with. Does this mean all goths are the same? No but I’d have to say, in general, no matter how much they frown on generalizations, the morality contained on goth sites is not what I’d want for my kids and thankfully, they agree.

I’ll google more today but the first 6 or 7 actually goth sites I googled (not wikipedia or answer.com types)for weren’t exactly in line with Catholic teaching. Maybe Goth-Catholic could point us to a site she thinks is in line with Church teachings.

I’ve always got to snicker when I hear about what free thinkers goths are but then they all choose to wear black.:rolleyes: What if they wanted to consider themselves goth and wear magenta?:rotfl:


#16

Sorry, “self expression???”
:ehh:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Maybe Goth expression. If it were self expression, everyone would not be wearing the same thing.


#17

Gather round, chillun…

It all started with Horace Walpole, a writer. The first gothic romance was his ‘rediscovered medieval manuscript’ The Castle of Otranto, a tale of revenge, woe, love, lust, taboos, and giant helmets falling on people (I am not making this up, I swear). Enter a long-standing literary tradition with such great examples as the Bronte sisters, Jane Austen, Bram Stoker, Mary Shelley, Joseph Sheridan LeFanu, Oscar Wilde, Edgar Allan Poe, and Poppy Z. Brite. Genre tropes include old crumbling houses, Byronic heroes, curses, magic, insanity, melodrama, hysteria, swooning women, vampires and werewolves and ghosts (oh my), all that good stuff. It picked up a good bit from the late-19th-century Decadent movement, but I’ll forego explaining that as I tend to run off at the mouth any chance I get on that topic.

With the development of the motion picture, some of these stories started getting adapted to video. All that B-movie horror? The gothic novel is its direct ancestor.

The music is a huge part, and it takes some explaining. By the late 70s-early 80s, punk rock is coming into its own, a stripped-down, minimalist answer to the excesses of glam. Already trying to transcend that are the post-punks. New Wave is just getting started, and along with it the New Romantic movement.

What do you get when you put all that in a blender, stuff David Bowie in on top, and set it to ‘puree’? Goth rock.

The first goth band, as far as anyone can tell, was Siouxsie and the Banshees. It’s pronounced ‘Susie’ :wink:

Siouxsie wore a lot of black. A lot. She also had interesting taste in designs – from the comparatively normal to bondage getup. The rest of the movement followed suit and expanded it further; the scene soon saw a revival of Victorian fashion. In black. Widow’s weeds – not just for breakfast anymore!

It’s still pretty much that way. Goth fashion ranges from stuff you’d expect to see at a Ren Faire to stuff your spouses would possibly be aghast if you ever expected to see it at all. Still lots of Victoriana. Corsets are a big thing (sometimes too big, if you get my drift and I think you do).

So there you go. Literature, music, fashion – that’s the basics of the movement.

[quote=maryjk]Maybe Goth expression. If it were self expression, everyone would not be wearing the same thing.
[/quote]

It’s a running joke here just how many shades of black there are. Nepenthe’s wearing a black Transformers t-shirt right now I wouldn’t be caught dead in (Nepenthe: I love my shirt! // me: I love it on you, honey). Style can be immensely different, even if it’s all the same color – and it often isn’t, we don’t wear just black (I wear grey sometimes :stuck_out_tongue: ).

You want to see people dressing all the same, check out emos :wink:


#18

I notice you snipped out the part of my post where I conceded that “I’m not saying all goths are going to turn into killers”…

Your argument (Ummm, fallacious reasoning?) reminds me of the argument made by people defending pit bulls, who say “oh yeah? How many other dogs attack and maim people? not just pit bulls” but I still wouldn’t own one…

I don’t really see it as an “either/or” situation - either I become goth or I self-destruct?:confused:


#19

The fallacy here is correlation = causation. Suddenly these killings are something more than the ordinary because the kids were goths.

I don’t really see it as an “either/or” situation - either I become goth or I self-destruct?:confused:

It isn’t either/or, but those are two among many possibilities for the hypothetical troubled youth.


#20

The correlation=causation fallacy is in your own mind, as I never said it was causitive. Correlation is enough for me to take notice…

Yup, if the kids hadn’t been goth, I would have surely viewed these killings as “ordinary”… hmmm, let’s think about THAT… :hmmm:


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