I thought that Sabellianism was dead...


#1

I’ve got a friend who left the Catholic Church a few years ago and refuses to give Her a second glance. She was upset about many things, including the architecture of the parish (giant upside-down coffee filter), and the number of abuses that were present. Unfortunately I had a great deal to do with her separation from Rome, as I was not a Catholic at the time and considered the Catholic Church to be the same as any other “denomination”… oops.

So I’ve spent the last year trying to present the truths of the Faith in a way she can understand and make a compelling arguement for her return to communion with the Church. Anyway she’s getting married in a few days to a non-Catholic man (we’re all 19, which is what’s so disturbing)… the issue of his baptism and the baptism of their children came up (because she has not made a formal renunciation of her faith, canonically she is still Catholic and should she ever return to the Church, this could be an issue in her marriage). She then went on to send me a treatise on baptism that she had written that opens with “to understand baptism we must understand Jesus.” The following is a direct quote:

What is the name of the Father? Jesus
John 10:30;ÊI and my Father are one.

What is the name of the Son? Jesus
Mark 1:1;ÊThe beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

What is the name of the Holy Ghost? Jesus
John 14:26;ÊBut the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It hit me immediately as being Modalism. I had no idea that the heresy was still around. I let her know what Tertullian, Novatian, and Ignatius of Antioch had to say about it and she called them ‘Catholic puppets’ who ignored the scriptures. She then presented a barrage of scripture that supposedly supports her position. Not one verse is presented in a way that someone could adopt the heresy of Modalism if they knew anything about other verses of the Bible. What’s up with this?

I warned her that since her husband was baptized under a Modalist formula that his baptism is not valid and that the baptism of her children would be considered invalid by 99 percent of the Christian world… What in the world can I do for this girl? I tried to explain how logically Modalism doesn’t work and I used the writings of Fathers who came BEFORE and AFTER Sabellius. Gyah. What kind of nuts believe this stuff?! Is it just a Pentecostal thing or are there other sects out there that do?


#2

This sounds like the Oneness Pentacostals. You might want to do a web search on that but be careful. In fact, I think even Protestant apologists have much to offer in the way of defending the Trinity against this type of thing.

Better yet … wait to see what others come up with before taking my suggestion


#3

Ditto, this age old heresy is found a new name called Oneness Pentacostalism. Essentially, all three persons of the Trinity are Jesus.


#4

Ditto all three. Smells like Oneness Pentecostal.

~mango~


#5

NONE of the oldest heresies are dead. Just reborn in each age, often with different names. The content is the same. Gnosticism, for instance is alive and well in all who hold Calvinist beliefs - humankind is inherently evil and has no good in it, the flesh and all creation is evil, etc. And that came along WAY before Christian gnosticism. It was around in pre-Christian times, in Greek lands as well as semitic lands.

As Ecclestiaticus told us: there is nothing new under the sun.


#6

[quote=Servant1]NONE of the oldest heresies are dead. Just reborn in each age, often with different names. The content is the same. Gnosticism, for instance is alive and well in all who hold Calvinist beliefs - humankind is inherently evil and has no good in it, the flesh and all creation is evil, etc. And that came along WAY before Christian gnosticism. It was around in pre-Christian times, in Greek lands as well as semitic lands.

As Ecclestiaticus told us: there is nothing new under the sun.
[/quote]

Yes. Same old errors in new tinsel.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#7

[quote=Servant1]NONE of the oldest heresies are dead. Just reborn in each age, often with different names. The content is the same. Gnosticism, for instance is alive and well in all who hold Calvinist beliefs - humankind is inherently evil and has no good in it, the flesh and all creation is evil, etc. And that came along WAY before Christian gnosticism. It was around in pre-Christian times, in Greek lands as well as semitic lands.

As Ecclestiaticus told us: there is nothing new under the sun.
[/quote]

Sad but true, sad but true. There is an interesting book called “The Cruelty of Heresy” that inquires into the relationship of many modern heresies with their ancient antecedents. And another called “The Empire Strikes Back” that investigates the New Age movement as a revival of ancient Gnosticism. Frightening but true. Check’em out. “test the spirits”


#8

If you want to practice a variation of Arianism, just join up with your local Kingdom Hall. Want Pelagianism, just find the closest Mormon temple. How about Gnosticism? Read Dan Brown’s book, or find an Ordo Templi Orientis.


#9

And if you want to find Nestorianism, just look for those who would deny Mary the title, Theotokos. :hmmm:

Justin


#10

[quote=Servant1]NONE of the oldest heresies are dead. Just reborn in each age, often with different names. The content is the same. Gnosticism, for instance is alive and well in all who hold Calvinist beliefs - humankind is inherently evil and has no good in it, the flesh and all creation is evil, etc. And that came along WAY before Christian gnosticism. It was around in pre-Christian times, in Greek lands as well as semitic lands.
[/quote]

Ahem…Explain what you think Calvinism is.

~mango~


#11

[quote=1962Missal]And if you want to find Nestorianism, just look for those who would deny Mary the title, Theotokos. :hmmm:

Justin
[/quote]

That would be anyone but a Catholic or Orthodox. Essentially the entirety of Protestantism suffers from the heresy of Nestorius.


#12

[quote=Apologia100]That would be anyone but a Catholic or Orthodox. Essentially the entirety of Protestantism suffers from the heresy of Nestorius.
[/quote]

:amen:

Justin


#13

Pardon me for disagreeing, but that is a gross generalisation. Please refer to my many posts citing the orthodoxy of Lutherans and Anglicans in honoring the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of God. Specifically the Formula of Concord of the Lutheran Confessions says that Mary is the Mother of God. I am aware that “In the Dark all Cats look grey”, all Protestants MAY look alike to you, but you cannot lump all Protestants together like that. If you don’t know ask.


#14

In my experience, people who follow this Oneness Pentecostal version of modalism also have invented an entire alternate history in order to claim that they are in fact the true Apostolic faith.

They view all the disparate heresies that questioned the Trinity as being the historical roots of this Oneness Pentecostal belief system, even though there is no logical connection between them.

I’ve found that debating with them is like nailing jello to a tree. They simply dismiss anything that refutes their position as being Catholic propaganda.


#15

[quote=headman13]Pardon me for disagreeing, but that is a gross generalisation. . . .
[/quote]

Good post, thanks for pointing that out.
BTW, if you Quote the message as I have done with your others will be able to figure out what message you are replying to. Just a suggestion.


#16

[quote=RBushlow]Good post, thanks for pointing that out.
BTW, if you Quote the message as I have done with your others will be able to figure out what message you are replying to. Just a suggestion.
[/quote]

Quite right. I was in a hurry between Church, hospitals and shut- ins…


#17

[quote=1962Missal]And if you want to find Nestorianism, just look for those who would deny Mary the title, Theotokos. :hmmm:

Justin
[/quote]

Then the service for St. Mary, Mother of God (my pastor is not that good at Greek pronounciation) at my LCMS church was a figment of my imagination?? :wink:

Had the white vestments and everything (always liked this feast, good break in Pentecost).


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