I want to love Muslims, but....


#1

…this jihad stuff like this scares me. What are American Christians to think? What do American Muslims believe?

fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

*Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa’i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah’s order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies – civilians and military – is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, “and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,” and “fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah.”

We – with Allah’s help – call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with ***Allah’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.
**
Jim


#2

Temporarily throwing aside the debate over whether or not Islam is a peaceful religion, I would say that the fact that this statement is from Osama bin Ladin makes me doubt that it represents all Muslims.


#3

[quote=CarolAnnSFO]… the debate over whether or not Islam is a peaceful religion…,
[/quote]

Well, I guess that is what it boils down to. If you have something that will ease my fears and that I can share with some people I know, please do.

Jim


#4

I guess what I’m saying or asking is why isn’t the rest of Islam outraged by this?

Jim


#5

I have had the same struggles with this. My son-in-law is a Muslim from Lybia. He is a wonderful, peaceful, gentle, loving man. He is a good father and husband. I had a take a good look at him. I now believe that all are not like these evil terrorists that are doing these awful things. There are people who profess to be Christains who do evil things as well. I don’t think we should judge them but let their actions speak for them. God will judge the ones who do evil. I think the majority of them are good peaceful people.


#6

Osama and folks like his terrorist group and other terrorist groups give all muslims a bad image.

Mulims in our office do not advocate hatred or killing. They are in no such jihad to murder Christians or anyone else.

It’s like asking if the KKK or IRA represents all Catholics or Christians in their ideas on race relation or dealing with protestants.

Radical hate groups are a very small minority who gets all the press. When we start to characterize the majority of muslims into the same pigeon holes, then we give them some small measure of victory. We must not allow ourselves to stereotype others.

By the same token, moderate muslims must speak out against terrorism and violence whenever they can. They must condemn violence in all it’s form as loudly as possible, otherwise the image of islamic extremists will stick and by default become what the world thinks of Islam as a whole.

Unfortunately, only the horrors of extremists are news worthy. The press sees no value in quoting more moderate muslims in their denial of affiliation with terrorists. It’s more sensational to show some suicide bombers than some speech or statement of denial. It’s a questionable policy when only one side of a story is shown, and it is a great disservice to more moderate muslims.

It makes you want to question the motives of American media and
destroys their credibility. (is it the media who leave out rebuttals, or are there no rebuttals to show) Are we not a bit too Pro-Isrealis, and would we not be better served with more balanced reporting ???

wc


#7

Bin Laden is an extremist, but Islam in general is underlain by the doctrine of Jihad - war to establish Islam. This is underplayed or moderated by some Muslims, but it is still there.

Here is a detailed definition of jihad from the Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam, page 89, [7]:

        DJIHAD, holy war.  The spread of Islam by arms is a religious duty upon Muslims in general.  It narrowly escaped being a sixth “rukn”, or fundamental duty, and is indeed still so regarded by the descendants of the Kharidjis.  The position was reached gradually but quickly.  In the Meccan Suras of the Kur’an patience under attack is taught; no other attitude was possible. But at Madina the right to repel attack appears, and gradually it became a prescribed duty to fight against and subdue the hostile Meccans.  Whether Muhammad himself recognized that his position implied steady and unprovoked war against the unbelieving world until it was subdued to Islam may be in doubt.  Traditions are explicit on the point; but the Kuranic passages speak always of the unbelievers who are to be subdued as dangerous or faithless.  Still, the story of his writing to the powers around him shows that such a universal position was implicit in his mind, and it certainly developed immediately after his death, when the Muslim armies advanced out of Arabia.  It is now a “fard ‘ala ‘l-kifaya, a duty in general on all male, free, adult Muslims, sane in mind and body and having means enough to reach the Muslim army, yet not a duty necessarily incumbent on every individual but sufficiently performed when done by a certain number.  **So it must continue to be done until the whole world  is under the rule of Islam.**”

This is from a detailed article at Answering Islam
answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/jihad.htm


#8

Whatever Muslims are translating the word “jihad” as “holy war” are idiots…and most likely terrorists. The word means “struggle” and was used in the beginning to refer to struggles taken to protect Islam. It changed over time to become used by these terrorists to try to get all of Islam behind them saying that it was a holy war and MUST be done.

I agree…it is like saying the IRA represents Catholicism and the UVF and UFF represent protestantism in the world. Look to Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali for examples of good followers of Islam.


#9

This is a little off topic, but I wonder if the Jihadists are aware that it is claimed that 70% of Americans are direct descendants of Muhammed? One of my hobbies is researching my family tree. I’ve used a book called “Genealogy via the Internet” by Ralph Roberts and he makes this claim. According to Roberts, President George Bush is entitled to wear green turban as he is the great-grandson 43 generations removed from the prophet:

"A shereef (or descendant of the prophet) wears a green turban, or is privileged to do so, but not other person and it is not common for any but a shereef to wear a bright green dress." Thomas Patrick Hughes “A Dictionary of Islam” quoted in Roberts’ book.

Here are some more famous people descended from Muhammed via his daughter Umm Kulthum: George Washington, Gen. Robert E. Lee, Queen Elizabeth II, President Jimmy Carter, “Buffalo Bill” Cody, Princess Diana, Thomas Jefferson, Gen. George S. Patton III, Laura Ingalls, Theodore Roosevelt, Richard Nixon, Pope Calixtus II and John Kerry. Amazing, isn’t it? If the research of some of the genealogists who have common ancestry with me and have posted their trees on the geneology sites is correct, I am too.

I wonder if the Jihadists were aware of the percentage of Americans descended from their prophet, they would not be so quick to use violence. But perhaps our Christianity overrides this fact. What do you think?


#10

This is a little off topic, but I wonder if the Jihadists are aware that it is claimed that 70% of Americans are direct descendants of Muhammed?
Blatant attempt to hijack my thread:)

But again, why aren’t Muslim clerics doing their darndest to repudiate this possible/apparent perversion of their fath? Or Muslim community? I mean, we have peace marches here. Why aren’t they happening at least in the USA (I understand why not overseas, to some degree, but I still don’t think it excuses the absence entirely)?

Jim


#11

Jihad aside, there is no freedom of religion in Muslim countries.


#12

You can’t always judge a religion by the actions of it’s members. A religion, like a parent, can only teach it’s members but cannot fully control their actions. Sometimes you get wacko’s that split off and start teaching their own version of the religion even though the idealogy may not be accepted by the faith they claim to be.

Look at David Koresh and the Branch Davidians in Waco, or Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple in San Franscisco. Can the whole of Christianity bear the blame for their actions?

Let me reccomend The Qu’Ran as translated by Muhammad Abdel Haleem. It is the best translation on the market today, as it not only translates what is being said, but takes great pains to maintain the context of what is being said as well. I’ve read it myself and it gave me a much better understanding of the issue.

The terrorists are using loopholes in the teachings of the Qu’ Ran to justify their actions. Where it say’s “Kill your enemy where-ever you may encounter them”, was in reality talking about people who would attack believers inside the city of Mecca where they were not allowed to fight, even to defend themselves, but today these militant’s are twisting the context of the passage to justify their own means, and to the mainstream muslim, they are radicles who are casting their whole religion into a bad light.

Very sad really.


#13

i am having a problem with this. i can’t believe that a religion that encompasses about 1/3 of the world can be evil.

however where are the voices af reason and sanity of the muslims?

i intend to rear the koran or whatever. i can’ believe so many people can be so bad.


#14

From what I’ve read on the issue (books like Bin Ladin: The Man who Declared War on America and others) al-Qaeda’s leadership consists of middle to upper middle class Arabs from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and other slightly more developed Arab states. Both of these countries have had exploitive relationships with the West. Egypt through British colonization, Saudi Arabia through its oil, all of which has prevented the kind of socio-economic and political development that the West came through. The Arab world has tried socialism, Nasserite-style pan-Arabism, and the Baathism of Saddam and Hafez Assad, and its going nowhere. So the masses figure, why not turn to Islam, our faith…it’s one of the few rays of hope they have left for jolting themselves out of political, social, and economic paralysis. The movement is called Islamism, which is basically politicized Islam — Bin Laden is a Jerry Falwell using the sinful tactic of terror.
Hope this helps. We really should pray for Arab Muslims who are living in repressive police states, that God gives them the courage to overthrow their unjust rulers, and embrace democracy.


#15

"Temporarily throwing aside the debate over whether or not Islam is a peaceful religion…
Jihad aside…"

A lot of important stuff is getting thrown aside here. Whether or not Islam is peaceful is an important part of the conversation I think. It could answer my question anyway. Why no reply CarolAnnSFO? And JimG please elaborate on your thought.

Unfortunately, only the horrors of extremists are news worthy…

I’m not buying that. If it were there I would hope we would see it. I want to be wrong here.

“Look at David Koresh and the Branch Davidians in Waco, or Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple in San Franscisco. Can the whole of Christianity bear the blame for their actions?..”

OK, but those nuts did not conduct worldwide endeavors. Pretty isolated really. Osama is isolated but I detect a fair amount of support. And the silence regarding his actions is deafening.
But thanks for your explanation of the loopholes. That’s what I’m talkin’ about, Muslim clerics!!!

“i can’t believe that a religion that encompasses about 1/3 of the world can be evil…r where are the voices af reason and sanity of the muslims…i can’ believe so many people can be so bad.”

I don’t get it,either. That’s what I’m trying to figure out. I’ve wrotten e-mails to Arab groups suggesting they speak out and…nothing.

Jim


#16

There is actually another loophole that I forgot to mention, Jihad.

Jihad is not a Holy War in the accepted sense where one religion battles another, but unfortunantly that is exactly how it’s being mis-interpreted by extreamists.

In actuality, the act of Jihad is a personal holy war over ones *personal *demons. It was never intended to mean “take up arms and kill someone”.

It’s very much like finding someone trying to dig their right eye out of it’s socket because Matthew 5:29 says “If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out”. :rolleyes:


#17

"i can’t believe that a religion that encompasses about 1/3 of the world can be evil…r where are the voices af reason and sanity of the muslims…i can’ believe so many people can be so bad."
I think it’s more like 1/6 rather than 1/3. The world is about 1/3 Christian though.


#18

[quote=Jo’s_Dad]There is actually another loophole that I forgot to mention, Jihad.

Jihad is not a Holy War in the accepted sense where one religion battles another, but unfortunantly that is exactly how it’s being mis-interpreted by extreamists.

In actuality, the act of Jihad is a personal holy war over ones *personal *demons. It was never intended to mean “take up arms and kill someone”.

It’s very much like finding someone trying to dig their right eye out of it’s socket because Matthew 5:29 says “If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out”. :rolleyes:
[/quote]

You’re wrong, I believe. Yes. there are muslims today who say jihad is just metaphorical or “personal”. However that is not the majority interpretation of the following Koran texts for the past 1400 years.

“As for those who are slain in the cause of God, He will not allow their works to perish. … He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them.” (47:4-6)

“Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. … The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan …” (4:74,76)

“The believers who stay at home––apart from those that suffer a grave impediment––are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home …” (4:95,96)

“Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. … lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way …” (9:5)

“Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them …” (5:34,35)

“Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme” (8:39)

“Prophet, rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding.” (8:65)

“Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given … and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” (9:29)

Islam divides the world into two parts - **The House of Islam ** and the rest of the world where Islam does not rule. This is called The House of War. It is the duty of every muslim who is able, to join in the eternal war to expand Islam. The war can be spiritual, but it can equally validly be physical. From the time of Mohammed onward, Muslim armies have sought to go out and conquer new lands for Islam.

Once lands are conquered, Sharia law is imposed and Christians and others become 2nd class citizens, known as Dhimmis, with few rights, and whose religion is constantly threatened. Conversion of a Muslim to Christianity is death.

Some modern Islamic states do not apply full Sharia, but that is the ultimate goal of Islam. Which is a system of a religious state.

In other words. It is not an accident that wherever Islam comes in contact with other faiths there is war and strife.

Russia
Bosnia
Armenia
Cyprus
Israel
Lebanon
Syria
Nigeria
Sudan
Egypt
Phillipines
Uzbekhistan
Pakistan
India
Indonesia
Timor
Thailand
Ivory Coast
etc. etc.

Islam does contain a principle that desires world domination. And Islam has got to made to face this huge flaw in its make-up before it can live peacefully with the rest of the world.


#19

I don´t know what do you think, The Koran is very violent, and is the word of God, without intepretations, the boder between islam and islamism is very thin and sometimes, inexistent, IMO the best solution is the conversion to catholicism.


#20

[quote=jjwilkman] i can’t believe that a religion that encompasses about 1/3 of the world can be evil.
however where are the voices af reason and sanity of the muslims?
i intend to rear the koran or whatever.** i can’ believe so many people can be so bad**.
[/quote]

It’s called original sin.


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