"I Will Build my Church"


#1

I realize that as Catholics, we view the “On this rock I will build my church” passage from the 16th chapter of Matthew as one of the biblical passages showing Jesus’s institution of the Papacy. How does that square with the point frequently brought up by protestants that in that passage, the original greek word used for church, “ekklesia,” was most often used to describe a congregation/assembly/group of people, etc., etc., rather than a visible institution?


#2

[quote=CollegeKid]I realize that as Catholics, we view the “On this rock I will build my church” passage from the 16th chapter of Matthew as one of the biblical passages showing Jesus’s institution of the Papacy. How does that square with the point frequently brought up by protestants that in that passage, the original greek word used for church, “ekklesia,” was most often used to describe a congregation/assembly/group of people, etc., etc., rather than a visible institution?
[/quote]

Because the word for ‘you’ is singular not plural.


#3

A group of people isn’t visible?


#4

Challenger,

To clarify, what I meant was that protestants claim that the Greek word Jesus used for church, “ekklesia,” most often did not refer to a visible, hierarchical institution, such as the Catholic Church, but a sort of invisible spiritual communion of “true believers.” Some protestants claim that one of the translations for “ekklesia” is “called-out ones.”


#5

Luther started this idea of an “invisible” church, wherein the church, he claims, is really made up of the people, and not an institution. It is of course his way of justifying his break from the Catholic Church, to make such a claim–a claim not found anywhere before him. So in short, such a claim is dubious.


#6

But I thought that as Catholics, its not that we don’t believe in the spiritual communion of all believers (Communion of the Saints/small ‘c’ catholic church?), rather, we don’t believe that the church can only be constituted of this invisible communion, that it is both the visible institution and the invisible communion of believers.


#7

Well for me, there is plenty of evidence that Peter and the Apostles set out to build a real foundation of a Church. In the Bible, Peter established the Church at Antioch, and the Epistles cite other instances where Churches are established. Revelation refers to the 7 Churches at the time as well - already established at the time of Revelation.

Look at the early writings of the time, though, as well. Now a Protestant trying to make a case will disagree, but IMHO these writings are valid because that is our record of history, and there was only one religion at the time:

Around AD 200, Iranaeus wrote that Matthew wrote his gospel while Peter and Paul were in Rome laying the foundation for the Church.

He also wrote that Linus was named as Peter’s successor, and next in line were Anacletus (Cletus) and then Clement of Rome.

Eusebius Pamphilius wrote that in 42 AD Peter is sent to Rome after establishing the Church of Antioch, where he remains as Bishop of that city.

There is ample historical evidence a Church was being established. Do we choose to believe that, or disputing ideas that start to be formed 1500 years later?


#8

[quote=CollegeKid]I realize that as Catholics, we view the “On this rock I will build my church” passage from the 16th chapter of Matthew as one of the biblical passages showing Jesus’s institution of the Papacy. How does that square with the point frequently brought up by protestants that in that passage, the original greek word used for church, “ekklesia,” was most often used to describe a congregation/assembly/group of people, etc., etc., rather than a visible institution?
[/quote]

The term “church” was not talking about a building made of cement or wood. It is a congregation of people, the Church existed before there was a church building to worship in.

It is very clear there are levels of authority in that congregation, Matt18:
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


#9

[quote=CollegeKid]But I thought that as Catholics, its not that we don’t believe in the spiritual communion of all believers (Communion of the Saints/small ‘c’ catholic church?), rather, we don’t believe that the church can only be constituted of this invisible communion, that it is both the visible institution and the invisible communion of believers.
[/quote]

Look to the creed…We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.


#10

ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
Total KJV Occurrences: 116

church, 77
Mat_16:18, Mat_18:17 (2), Act_2:47, Act_5:11, Act_7:38, Act_8:1, Act_8:3, Act_11:22, Act_11:26, Act_12:1, Act_12:5, Act_13:1, Act_14:23, Act_14:27, Act_15:3-4 (2), Act_18:22 (2), Act_20:17, Act_20:28, Rom_16:1, Rom_16:5, Rom_16:23, 1Co_1:2, 1Co_4:17, 1Co_6:4, 1Co_10:32, 1Co_11:18, 1Co_11:22, 1Co_12:28, 1Co_14:4-5 (2), 1Co_14:12, 1Co_14:19, 1Co_14:23, 1Co_14:28, 1Co_14:35, 1Co_15:9, 1Co_16:19, 2Co_1:1, Gal_1:13, Eph_1:22, Eph_3:10, Eph_3:21, Eph_5:23-25 (3), Eph_5:27, Eph_5:29, Eph_5:32, Phi_3:6, Phi_4:15, Col_1:18, Col_1:24, Col_4:15-16 (2), 1Th_1:1, 2Th_1:1, 1Ti_3:5, 1Ti_5:15-16 (2), Phm_1:2, Heb_2:12, Heb_12:23, Jam_5:14, 1Pe_5:13, 3Jo_1:6, 3Jo_1:9-10 (2), Rev_2:1, Rev_2:8, Rev_2:12, Rev_2:18, Rev_3:1, Rev_3:7, Rev_3:14

churches, 36
Act_9:31, Act_15:41, Act_16:5, Rom_16:4, Rom_16:16, 1Co_7:17, 1Co_11:16, 1Co_14:33-34 (2), 1Co_16:1, 1Co_16:19, 2Co_8:1, 2Co_8:18-19 (2), 2Co_8:23-24 (2), 2Co_11:8, 2Co_11:28, 2Co_12:13, Gal_1:2, Gal_1:22, 1Th_2:14, 2Th_1:4, Rev_1:4, Rev_1:11, Rev_1:20 (2), Rev_2:7, Rev_2:11, Rev_2:17, Rev_2:23, Rev_2:29, Rev_3:6, Rev_3:13, Rev_3:22, Rev_22:16

assembly, 3
Act_19:32, Act_19:39, Act_19:41

Look these verses up, they do not sound like either the evangalists nor Paul are talking about some random communion of believers. This is just another example of protestants taking the bible in a vacuum and coming to errant conclusions because they refuse to look at the whole picture.


#11

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