"I Will Convert To Islam"


#1

Observations and comments.

Putting myself in the shoes of an ordinary layman, here is how I read the paragraph concerning Islam in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and my conclusions:

1 - The Catholic Church is clearly saying to the Muslims that "we, Catholics of the World, are acknowledging the truthfulness and the authenticity of your religion, since our both God is the same, is ONE. "

2 - Based on the above, why the Catholic Church doesn’t ask her followers to convert to Islam, since the God is One, and the Church clearly says in her Catechism that** “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”** Why?

3 - But, wait a minute, I’m confused now, how come the god of Islam is ONE, and the Christian God is 3 in 1? If Islam denies Jesus as God, his Resurection and the Trinity, how come the Catechism is saying that both Gods are the same? Something is wrong here. Shouldn’t the God of both religions be of the same nature? I clearly see two very different Gods here.

4 - Also, If it’s the same God, then why Muhammad killed the Christians and the Jews and kicked the rest of them out of Arabia? Shouldn’t two or three faiths be united and live together in peace, since they have the same God? Why the “prophet” of Islam hated the Jews and the Christians, I don’t understand. Maybe the Catholic Church knows something about that. I couldn’t find any explanation in the Catechism about the genocide against the Christians and Jews by Muhammad.

5 - Now, if the God is one, then the faith should be one. Will the Pope renounce his papacy, become a Muslim and move to Mecca, since Ecumenism, Unity, Conciliation, Compromise, Brotherly love, and Charity are some of the basic beliefs of the Catholic Church? Or it’s just talk?

6 - If the God is one, why the Muslims are persecuting and conduction mass-muder against the Christians until this very moment.

7 - If the God is one, and when John-Paul II kissed the Quran, doesn’t mean that he acknowledged the authenticity, the genuineness of the Quran, and consequently, the belief in the Quran as the word of God too? Is it not a call for Catholics to buy, read and believe in the Quran, because “if it’s good for the Pope then it’s good for me,” is it not?

8 - If the God is One, why Muhammad forbade, and his followers are still forbidding any religion other than Islam, including Christianity of course (same god, remember?), from building places of worship in Saudi Arabia?

9 - Why the One God had to send another prophet after Jesus? And why that new prophet is denying Jesus as the Son of God, His Crucifixtion and His Resurection? Why one is denying the other? Aren’t they messengers of the same “One God”?

10 - And why the Catholic Church is acknowledging the truthfulness of the Quran, but the Muslims deny the Bible?

Just some thoughts from a Catholic layman, not a theologian, not a religious, just a simple layman, after reading the paragraph on Islam from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Now, excuse me, I have to go to the Mosque to convert to Islam.

My new name is “Muhammad.”

Thank you Catechism.


#2

no pork
no alcohol,
a dress code, clockwork prayer, and foot washing 5 times a day?

I’d think about this conversion thing a little more if I were you :wink:


#3

Hello,
John 14:6 says,
Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

According to this Bible word, how can Mohammed`s followers go to God?
In Christ,
selvaraj


#4

Lets see then

[quote=USCatholic]Observations and comments.

1 - The Catholic Church is clearly saying(hmm, id have to disagree, i dont think the message is crystal clear) to the Muslims that "we, Catholics of the World, are acknowledging the truthfulness and the authenticity of your religion, since our both God is the same, is ONE. "(Do we recognise the authenticity of their religion?, or their practices (in general with regard to the peaceful muslims, or their God ( creator of the heavens and earth). )

2 - Based on the above (which isnt as correct as you made it out to be), why the Catholic Church doesn’t ask her followers to convert to Islam, since the God is One, and the Church clearly says in her Catechism that** “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”**(I wasnt aware that was in the catechism, but remember we are respecting the muslims for recognising that there is only one God who sent Jesus down to preach to the world, they got lost after this, but its not their fault, blame Muhammed) Why?(Question here is why not, because Islam is a shameless religion that promotes violence, homosexuality, peadophilia, rape, reducing womens equal status to almost nothing and many more. False Islam is the one most follow and that is a peaceful religion, im pretty sure the pope knows the difference, and thus doesnt ask us to convert to “Islam”, though he might do well to ask the False Islamists to become Catholics.)

3 - But, wait a minute, I’m confused now, how come the god of Islam is ONE, and the Christian God is 3 in 1?
(Three in one, denotes one in a specific form, can therfore be synonymous with the islamic God) If Islam denies Jesus as God, his Resurection and the Trinity, how come the Catechism is saying that both Gods are the same?( God is God, he doesnt cease to be because you dont believe in some part of him) Something is wrong here. Shouldn’t the God of both religions be of the same nature? I clearly see two very different Gods here.( Remember, the muslims worship God but do not know him, their twisted Koran has warped their minds but they are still worshipping God, hence the lack of a name, Allah just means God)

4 - Also, If it’s the same God, then why Muhammad killed the Christians and the Jews and kicked the rest of them out of Arabia?(Simple, if you were creating a religion that was a joke, youd need to make it viable in some form, Muhammed’s response, kill all other religions) Shouldn’t two or three faiths be united and live together in peace, since they have the same God? (Essentially, the Jews and ourselves worship the same God, but we do not therefore worship together, our beliefs and understandings vary differently.) Why the “prophet” of Islam hated the Jews and the Christians, I don’t understand. Maybe the Catholic Church knows something about that. I couldn’t find any explanation in the Catechism about the genocide against the Christians and Jews by Muhammad.

5 - Now, if the God is one, then the faith should be one. Will the Pope renounce his papacy, become a Muslim and move to Mecca, since Ecumenism, Unity, Conciliation, Compromise, Brotherly love, and Charity are some of the basic beliefs of the Catholic Church? (Would you denounce the true religion, or try and make peace with some slightly deluded friends and try and convert them, JP2 chose option B) Or it’s just talk?

6 - If the God is one, why the Muslims are persecuting and conduction mass-muder against the Christians until this very moment. (Koran = violence, Muslims obey Koran, = violence against Christians)

[/quote]


#5

7 - If the God is one, and when John-Paul II kissed the Quran, doesn’t mean that he acknowledged the authenticity, the genuineness of the Quran, and consequently, the belief in the Quran as the word of God too?(Youre in a hall, surrounded by Muslims in an Islamic country and you head the true faith, is it wise NOT to kiss the Koran, it was a sign of respect not a recogntition of it being the Word Of God, can you imagine the outbreak of violence against Catholics if he hadnt kissed it, the papers would have had a field day, as it is the only bad results are a few idiots claiming that this is proof that JP2 was an anti pope, or an antichrist) Is it not a call for Catholics to buy, read and believe in the Quran, because “if it’s good for the Pope then it’s good for me,” is it not?

8 - If the God is One, why Muhammad forbade, and his followers are still forbidding any religion other than Islam, including Christianity of course (same god, remember?), from building places of worship in Saudi Arabia? (As far as im aware, EVERY religion forbids you to convert to another religion, to prevent that from happening at all, Mohammed decided to prevent temptation from being present.)

9 - Why the One God had to send another prophet after Jesus? And why that new prophet is denying Jesus as the Son of God, His Crucifixtion and His Resurection? Why one is denying the other? Aren’t they messengers of the same “One God”? (No, i dont know what youre getting at here, Islam is a false religion?!?!?!)

10 - And why the Catholic Church is acknowledging the truthfulness of the Quran, but the Muslims deny the Bible?(REALLY, do you have a quote?, i think you may have been misguided on this point)

I hope this increases your understanding.

Andre.


#6

Here’s something we can do. Actually the disgusting quote from the Catechism can actually be interpreted so that it is not wrong. Here is the quote again:

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Beleive it or not, that can be interpreted to mean that ONLY Catholics with be saved, and that Muslims worhip a false God, and NOT the true God that Catholic worship.

Let’s see who can solve the riddle and show how the above misleading quote from the Catechsm is actually not incorrect (only deceptive).


#7

Please go study the REST of the Catechism, the documents of Vatican II, and Dominus Jesus before coming back here and spouting nonsense and attacking the Church.

Or, there’s a pope in Kentucky you might try on for size.

The Catechism is not misleading, deceptive, or wrong.

And, shouldn’t this be in the ISLAM folder??? Moderator???


#8

[quote=RSiscoe]Here’s something we can do. Actually the disgusting quote from the Catechism can actually be interpreted so that it is not wrong. Here is the quote again:

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Beleive it or not, that can be interpreted to mean that ONLY Catholics with be saved, and that Muslims worhip a false God, and NOT the true God that Catholic worship.

Let’s see who can solve the riddle and show how the above misleading quote from the Catechsm is actually not incorrect (only deceptive).
[/quote]

I’ll take a stab at this as this is something I have been thinking about.

It comes down to this part of the statement, “these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,”. I have underlined the key word.

If they “profess to hold the faith of Abraham” that does not necessarily mean that they truly hold the faith of Abraham, which we know they do not, they only think they do.

So RSiscoe, how did I do?


#9

[quote=Steve Andersen]no pork
no alcohol,
a dress code, clockwork prayer, and foot washing 5 times a day?

I’d think about this conversion thing a little more if I were you :wink:
[/quote]

Foot washing 5 times a day . . . if I’m gelling, does that count?


#10

[quote=DavidB]Foot washing 5 times a day . . . if I’m gelling, does that count?
[/quote]

I think that is left up to the conscious of the individual :wink:


#11

[quote=USCatholic]3 - But, wait a minute, I’m confused now, how come the god of Islam is ONE, and the Christian God is 3 in 1? If Islam denies Jesus as God, his Resurection and the Trinity, how come the Catechism is saying that both Gods are the same? Something is wrong here. Shouldn’t the God of both religions be of the same nature? I clearly see two very different Gods here.

[/quote]

OK, here’s the equation: Jesus called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob His Father and God, the God of the Jews (which was not understood to be Triune). Muslims call God (Allah) the God of Abraham, the God of the Jews. God (of Jesus) = God (of Jews) = God (of Islam). [Two things equal to a third thing are equal to each other.] God really is the same God and really is Triune, but He is not known to be Triune (or that Jesus is His Only Begotten Son) by either Jews or Muslims. Catholics have a more complete understanding of God as given through Jesus, but that does not mean Muslims have no understanding of God or that their God is a different one. [This works the same for Plato, Aristotle and – I would argue – Mormons; but not Buddhists nor (most) Hindus]

[quote=USCatholic]5 - Now, if the God is one, then the faith should be one. Will the Pope renounce his papacy, become a Muslim and move to Mecca, since Ecumenism, Unity, Conciliation, Compromise, Brotherly love, and Charity are some of the basic beliefs of the Catholic Church? Or it’s just talk?

[/quote]

This is a non-sequetur: just because we acknowledge the same God, it does not follow that the faith of each will be the same. JP2 & B16 are the first to admit that Catholics have a more complete understanding of God, while acknowledging that we share some beliefs about God with Jews, Muslims, Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists – some of these more than others. All pray to the same God, but clearly not all of the faiths are the same. I don’t see the problem.

[quote=USCatholic]7 - If the God is one, and when John-Paul II kissed the Quran, doesn’t mean that he acknowledged the authenticity, the genuineness of the Quran, and consequently, the belief in the Quran as the word of God too? Is it not a call for Catholics to buy, read and believe in the Quran, because “if it’s good for the Pope then it’s good for me,” is it not?

[/quote]

You got all of that out of a kiss?!? But it was only a kiss . . . I don’t see the inconsistency of acknowledging that Muslims are partly right (and mostly wrong) about God, and also showing respect for their sacred symbols and objects out of a love for them as persons. Muslims believe their incomplete truth very deeply in a very personalistic manner (in JP2’s sense), and that belief deserves respect. Also, Jesus told us to love our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute us . . . even to this very day.


#12

First of all USCatholic, who died and made you pope? Do you really want to change the catechism? Is that what you’re getting at? You know sometimes when I read these posts on Islam I become very despondent. I can’t believe the amount of vitriol and barely concealed hatred directed at muslims that I read in these forums.
Are we Christians or aren’t we? Why don’t we pray for peace before its too late? Why don’t we expend our energies praying that everyone will know the peace and happiness that we as Catholics know? If we continue down this road we are all heading for disaster. Enough. I’m taking a break for awhile. I came to CAF looking for encouragement, but am finding more to be depressed about.

One more bit of advice for USCatholic, check out the writings of Saint Faustina. Divine Mercy is what we all need now.

Peace to all and God Bless.

Marvin


#13

#14

Actually the Church does not not teach it either.

There is no dogmatic statement from the Church either way that I am aware of.

Here are a couple of paragraphs from the Catechism.

780 The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men.

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains:
"For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268

267 LG 8 § 2.
268 UR 3 § 5.

Now these do not state that salvation is found only in the Catholic Church, but I do not think we are prohibited from believing such a thing. I don’t necessairly believe that. The only thing we can say is that we do not know if salvation can be found outside of the Church, only God knows.


#15

Islams, Jews, and other religion except those who believe in different gods, believe in ONE GOD, the GOD who creates the world, the Almighty Father, which is also OUR (Catholics) GOD, the first person of the Triune.

Jesus Christ however reveal the mystery of the Trinity to the Catholic Church. That God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are ONE GOD in three person. Somewhat we are lucky that Jesus Christ reveal to us a great mystery.


#16

Can’t tell if USCatholic is serious about converting, but the discussion is a bit off track.

The quote from the catecism is neither wrong nor deceptive. It clearly is saying that Muslims believe in One God (the God of Abraham) just as we do.

AND Pope John Paul II basically said the same thing that those who lead rightgeous and upright lives will share in the building the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is nothing that says Catholics are authenticating the Koran or Islam, it just says that we both acknowledge one all powerful and merciful Creator.

Because we disagree on the role and nature of Jesus, does not necessarily mean that the Church thinks all muslims are toast. But on the contrary, the cathecism here is saying that because we follow the same God, the God of Abraham, then muslims too will share in the Kingdom of God.

And most muslims do not hate Christians, nor do most muslims teach or advocate hatred. Muslims and Christians lived in the holy land in peace for hundreds of years prior to the crusades. There are many countries even today where Christians and Muslims live in peace. In the US itself, there are millions of muslims. They don’t advocate the killing of Christians nor do they participate in terrorism.

There are some Islamic states, like Saudi Arabia who do suppress other religions and there are radical groups who advocate terrorism and hatred of Christians. But the vast majority of muslims do not have these same views. To judge all muslims by the actions of a small minority is a grave injustice.

It would be like judging all Catholics or Christians by the actions of the IRA or the Arian skinheads or the KKK. It’s always the kooks and radicals who get all the press. There is no glamour in just leading an upright life. Unfortunately, goodness is not news worthy.

wc


#17

I just started reading in Ratzinger’s “On Truth and Tolerance” last night. I think it will shed much light on this subject as it already has. He in that book says there are two ways of looking at other religions. We can view what is false in them and so they are evil. We can also look at what is true in them and view them as a preperation for accepting Christ. He brings up two examples. The one is cornelius and the other is the Greeks in Athens in Acts 17.

Cornelius was not a Christian, but he did believe in one God. I am sure he had no concept of the trinity, likely being influenced by Judaism. Now BEFORE Peter preaches to him he is called a “righteous and God fearing man”. I am sure he held some errors. Yet God still heard his prayer and called him righteous and God fearing.

In Acts 17 in the Aereopogus Paul looks for something in the belief of the Athenians that he can use to relate to them the one true God. He finds this altar to an unknown God and uses this to explain the one true God to them. He does not go about looking for where they are in error but finds some truth in what they believe for they have no statue for this God and he points out to them that the true God is not made of human hands.

In one sense the God of Islam and the concept of the Moslems of God is true, i.e. there is one God. They have a concept that the Jews basically had before Christ and still do. That concept is not false but does not contain the fullness of the truth. Are they guilty of what in their concept is lacking. Only God can judge whether it is in ignorance that they do not fully know him.

Interesting stuff.

By the way I do not recommend that any Catholic become Moslem. We are held to a higher standard based on the higher favors God has given us. “To the one who knew he will be treated as an unbeliever, but to the one who DID NOT KNOW he will recieve but few lashes.”

Blessings


#18

[quote=viktor aleksndr]Islams, Jews, and other religion except those who believe in different gods, believe in ONE GOD, the GOD who creates the world, the Almighty Father, which is also OUR (Catholics) GOD, the first person of the Triune.

Jesus Christ however reveal the mystery of the Trinity to the Catholic Church. That God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are ONE GOD in three person. Somewhat we are lucky that Jesus Christ reveal to us a great mystery.
[/quote]

I do not believe this as the God of the Qur’an is not the God of the Bible. The God of Islam is not the same God as we Catholics, other Christians, and the Jews follow.

Just because a group professes to believe in one God does not mean that they follow the same God as we do.


#19

The Catechism says no such thing.

You ignore the line, “these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,”.

The Catechism says that they may worship the same God, or they may not. It only says that they (Muslims) profess to hold the faith of Abraham, not that they do hold the faith of Abraham.


#20

I think you are playing with semantics, when the intent is not meant to be so.


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