Idolatry?


#1

Many Muslims claim Catholics are idolaters for praying while facing statues. Is this view the norm or the opinion of a minority? How does this differ from praying in front of the Ka’bah?

Peace,

George


#2

[quote=George Waters]Many Muslims claim Catholics are idolaters for praying while facing statues. Is this view the norm or the opinion of a minority? How does this differ from praying in front of the Ka’bah?

Peace,

George
[/quote]

Since the Catholic Church is the true Church, the Church one must therefore be a member of to be saved, then it really is irrelevant what Muslims or any non-Catholic thinks about this subject. They are in a false religion and that’s all there is to it.


#3

[quote=bhlincoln]Since the Catholic Church is the true Church, the Church one must therefore be a member of to be saved, then it really is irrelevant what Muslims or any non-Catholic thinks about this subject. They are in a false religion and that’s all there is to it.
[/quote]

Hi there. I understood that the Catholic Church once held the belief that you needed to be part of the church for salvation. However I thought since Vat. II that changed or something.

Is that still the correct position of the church? That you need to be apart of it for salvation?

I think that what it says in my catechism however I cannot locate it right now.

Would this be it.

All outside the Catholic Church cannot be saved.
Eugene IV, D:714

Thanks.


#4

Praying toward a statue is not praying to the statue. It is asking the person represented by the statue for their prayers, which are more effective, as the saints are closer to God than we here on earth are.

As for the requirement that one belong to the Church to gain heaven, it still remains. There are different ways to belong to the Church however. They can be found in the Catechism if you wish to find out what they are.

God bless,

Agricola


#5

[quote=Cath.orProtes.?]Hi there. I understood that the Catholic Church once held the belief that you needed to be part of the church for salvation. However I thought since Vat. II that changed or something.

Is that still the correct position of the church? That you need to be apart of it for salvation?

I think that what it says in my catechism however I cannot locate it right now.

Would this be it.

All outside the Catholic Church cannot be saved.
Eugene IV, D:714

Thanks.
[/quote]

In Scripture we clearly see Jesus starting His Church, giving His Apostles the command to spread His word over the face of the earth, and stating those who do not believe would be condemned. We see the Apostles continuing the Church by making priests such as with St. Paul sending Timothy and Titus. Scripture is very clear that we believe or be condemned and the Catholic Church has always taught this. I don’t know the teaching of V2 but then again I do not believe that is a valid council anyway, having had Protestant ministers involved in it and bringing in teachings contrary to the Council of Trent and other past teachings of the Church (whole other subject). It’s a bad time for the Catholic Church no doubt, but regardless we know it will always exist and never fail and one must seek it out and be part of it to be saved…

BH


#6

[quote=George Waters]Many Muslims claim Catholics are idolaters for praying while facing statues. Is this view the norm or the opinion of a minority? How does this differ from praying in front of the Ka’bah?
[/quote]

Greetings George,

The Ka’bah is not an object of worship of Islam, nor does it mediate through to God or anything like that. It is just a compass…like a focal point to get all Muslims on the same page, so they can pray together without facing in all which directions. Whether there’s a cube there, or a pole or a sign or whatever or even nothing to mark the spot…the purpose is unity action.

The Ka’bah itself is actually a house of worship, just like a mosque (albeit very small). It’s actually a small mosque inside a bigger one encircling it.

The difference between Muslim and Catholic worship is that when Muslims bow and prostrate on the ground, they do it wherever they’re praying, no matter what’s in front of them, a tree, a wall etc., because the humility the bowing and prostrations represent is for God alone, and God is everywhere.

On the other hand, Catholics and Orthodox will not bow or prostrate *except before a statue or icon, * which does become idolatrous because one is really physically humbling himself to a man-made work, like a stone sculpture or painting.

Now, before everyone seizes on me with outrage…I can appreciate that Catholics aren’t actually worshipping the statue when they do this, but still…one can acknowledge worshipping only a certain thing in theory, but by his actions suggest that he does something else than he says.


#7

[quote=Shenango]Greetings George,

The Ka’bah is not an object of worship of Islam, nor does it mediate through to God or anything like that. It is just a compass…like a focal point to get all Muslims on the same page, so they can pray together without facing in all which directions. Whether there’s a cube there, or a pole or a sign or whatever or even nothing to mark the spot…the purpose is unity action.

The Ka’bah itself is actually a house of worship, just like a mosque (albeit very small). It’s actually a small mosque inside a bigger one encircling it.

The difference between Muslim and Catholic worship is that when Muslims bow and prostrate on the ground, they do it wherever they’re praying, no matter what’s in front of them, a tree, a wall etc., because the humility the bowing and prostrations represent is for God alone, and God is everywhere.

On the other hand, Catholics and Orthodox will not bow or prostrate except before a statue or icon, which does become idolatrous because one is really physically humbling himself to a man-made work, like a stone sculpture or painting.

Now, before everyone seizes on me with outrage…I can appreciate that Catholics aren’t actually worshipping the statue when they do this, but still…one can acknowledge worshipping only a certain thing in theory, but by his actions suggest that he does something else than he says.
[/quote]

The same could be said of Muslims and the Kabah, even if they say they don’t “worship” it!


#8

Do not Muslims kiss the stone in the Ka’bah?


#9

[quote=discipleofJesus]Do not Muslims kiss the stone in the Ka’bah?
[/quote]

From this page:

Could a Stone Be God?

Although so reverently kissed and caressed during the Tawaf, the Black stone, in one of the corners of the Ka’bah, is no graven image for the pilgrims to worship. That is the last thing any muwahhid could ever imagine. For a stone is just a mere stone after all. It has no power whatsoever to do good or inflict harm to any one, apart from Allah, the Sole Deity of mankind.

That is a thing cherished either knowingly, ignorantly or figuratively - by those who take to stone-worship instead of God-worship, a belief and practice as unholy as it is senseless. This is why the Black Stone becomes a mystery to such people, and so, some out of ignorance openly charge that Muhammad (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) did break every Idol in Islam except one - meaning the Ka’bah, or the Black Stone! Even some unwitting Muslims get easily confused about the Black Stone.

It was hence that 'Umar, the second Caliph (radiallahu 'anhu), did well to remove this hidden doubt from the mind. So when he came to kiss the Stone, he cried out publicly to it: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah’s Messenger (Peace be upon him) kissing you, I would not have kissed you. [Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari, Al-Hajj, page 396 No. 808 on the Black Stone]

The statement of 'Umar about sums it up, and the Messenger (PBUH) probably just kissed the stone symbolically out of affection for his great grandfather, Abraham (PBUH), who originally built the place. He never mentioned any signficance regarding it, so many Muslims just do as the Prophet (PBUH) did, but personally, I wouldn’t put my lips anywhere near it!


#10

[quote=bhlincoln]In Scripture we clearly see Jesus starting His Church, giving His Apostles the command to spread His word over the face of the earth, and stating those who do not believe would be condemned. We see the Apostles continuing the Church by making priests such as with St. Paul sending Timothy and Titus. Scripture is very clear that we believe or be condemned and the Catholic Church has always taught this. I don’t know the teaching of V2 but then again I do not believe that is a valid council anyway, having had Protestant ministers involved in it and bringing in teachings contrary to the Council of Trent and other past teachings of the Church (whole other subject). It’s a bad time for the Catholic Church no doubt, but regardless we know it will always exist and never fail and one must seek it out and be part of it to be saved…

BH
[/quote]

If you don’t know the teachings of Vatican II then how do you know they are in conflict with Trent? And…its always a good time to be Catholic :slight_smile:


#11

[quote=Shenango]Greetings George,

The Ka’bah is not an object of worship of Islam, nor does it mediate through to God or anything like that. It is just a compass…like a focal point to get all Muslims on the same page, so they can pray together without facing in all which directions. Whether there’s a cube there, or a pole or a sign or whatever or even nothing to mark the spot…the purpose is unity action.

The Ka’bah itself is actually a house of worship, just like a mosque (albeit very small). It’s actually a small mosque inside a bigger one encircling it.

The difference between Muslim and Catholic worship is that when Muslims bow and prostrate on the ground, they do it wherever they’re praying, no matter what’s in front of them, a tree, a wall etc., because the humility the bowing and prostrations represent is for God alone, and God is everywhere.

On the other hand, Catholics and Orthodox will not bow or prostrate except before a statue or icon, which does become idolatrous because one is really physically humbling himself to a man-made work, like a stone sculpture or painting.

Now, before everyone seizes on me with outrage…I can appreciate that Catholics aren’t actually worshipping the statue when they do this, but still…one can acknowledge worshipping only a certain thing in theory, but by his actions suggest that he does something else than he says.
[/quote]

Shenago,

Thank you for the information on the Ka’bah. I do have to take exception to one thing you said and it is not the one you thought; “Catholics and Orthodox will not bow or prostrate except before a statue or icon”. That is not an accurate statement. When I kneel and pray at home I do not do so in front of a statue or icon. Like you I kneel and pray to God alone. It may appear to some that Catholic’s worship statues and that Orthodox worship Icons and Muslim’s worship the Ka’bah, but I think we both know better.

Peace,

George


#12

[quote=janman55]If you don’t know the teachings of Vatican II then how do you know they are in conflict with Trent? And…its always a good time to be Catholic :slight_smile:
[/quote]

:confused: You have taken something I said about Vatican II from another post and posted it out of context. V2 is not part of this thread.


#13

I apologize bh…I’m not sure how this happened.


#14

[quote=George Waters]Shenago,

Thank you for the information on the Ka’bah. I do have to take exception to one thing you said and it is not the one you thought; “Catholics and Orthodox will not bow or prostrate except before a statue or icon”. That is not an accurate statement. When I kneel and pray at home I do not do so in front of a statue or icon. Like you I kneel and pray to God alone. It may appear to some that Catholic’s worship statues and that Orthodox worship Icons and Muslim’s worship the Ka’bah, but I think we both know better.

Peace,

George
[/quote]

Actually, many of us, when praying for the intercession of a saint, kneel in front of their image or statue, since kneeling is a praying stance. But from what I gather, both Catholics and Protestants never bow or prostrate except to the Holy Eucharist and God alone. Both infer respect, and prostration is worship.


#15

Hi Shenango -

Have you ever picked up a picture of say, a passed loved one (forgive me, please) and kissed it? Yes, you kiss the picture, but are you embracing the picture or the memory of your loved one?

Such it is with the statue or icon. It is the same thing. We approach the object, but embrace the memory of the person being represented by the object. The respect payed to the object thus passes through the object to the person portrayed.

All actions suggested aside, to embrace the object itself would be a total abomination and anyone who does so would be immediately repremanded. It is against ALL that Christianity believes in. I say to you that anyone who portays a christian as an idolator is a purposeful deceiver and guilty of false witnessing. That person is a liar.

I kiss the crucifix on my Rosary before I pray. Am I an idolator? I am not! It is my love for Christ which I am expressing. I care nothing for the object itself.

It is the same way when I kiss my dear deceased mother’s picture.

Subrosa


#16

[quote=discipleofJesus]Do not Muslims kiss the stone in the Ka’bah?
[/quote]

Does the pope kiss the ground when he gets off an airplane?


#17

I accept what Catholics say about their actions relating to statues or icons.

Can anyone tell us who really worships a statue or idol, and why they conclude it is being worshipped?


#18

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

To George Water
This is interesting. May be I should first correct all of you that the meaning of IDOLATRY is not limited to statues in Catholic case or Holy Ka’abah. Idolatry is when you treat something more important than Allah. And for moslems, Allah is the most important thing, so no moslems do idolatry.
But one thing to be considered by Catholics, they have VATICAN DECREE which is considered infallible. I could say that it’s a kind of IDOLATRY too, because unlike Quran, it’s the words from a man (Pope).


#19

[quote=TheProphet]In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

To George Water
This is interesting. May be I should first correct all of you that the meaning of IDOLATRY is not limited to statues in Catholic case or Holy Ka’abah. Idolatry is when you treat something more important than Allah. And for moslems, Allah is the most important thing, so no moslems do idolatry.
But one thing to be considered by Catholics, they have VATICAN DECREE which is considered infallible. I could say that it’s a kind of IDOLATRY too, because unlike Quran, it’s the words from a man (Pope).
[/quote]

The same could be said of the Quran. That it’s the words of one man, Mohammed! :smiley: IMHO you don’t know what the heck you’re talking about! Is this more of the nonsense you’re taught about other religions in order to bolster your faith in Islam and never question its authenticity?

I never had to learn anything derogatory about other religions in order to believe in mine!

Vickie


#20

[quote=TheProphet]In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

To George Water
This is interesting. May be I should first correct all of you that the meaning of IDOLATRY is not limited to statues in Catholic case or Holy Ka’abah. Idolatry is when you treat something more important than Allah. And for moslems, Allah is the most important thing, so no moslems do idolatry.
But one thing to be considered by Catholics, they have VATICAN DECREE which is considered infallible. I could say that it’s a kind of IDOLATRY too, because unlike Quran, it’s the words from a man (Pope).
[/quote]

You believe that the Quran is the word of Allah, correct? So why do you also have the works of the Companions? I honestly believe that Catholicism and Islam have many similarities, but most of the time we refuse to see any truth in the other.

Peace,

George


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