If Benedict XVI allows wider use of the Tridentine Mass, will there be restrictions?

rescath.net/showthread.php?t=3

Is this a new forum? Did you start it?

Unfortunately, this board limits questions to 127 characters, so I’ll use this post to lay out the full wording of the original poll questions (which have a bit more meat to them).

  1. No, priests will be able to offer the Tridentine Mass without any restrictions even if their bishops are opposed to it.

  2. Yes, but the restrictions will be few and limited, and it will be very difficult for bishops to prevent priests from offering the Tridentine Mass.

  3. Yes, it will simply change the default status of the Mass from “forbidden unless explicitly allowed by bishops” to “allowed unless explicitly forbidden by bishops”.

  4. Yes, the decree will be so restrictive that it will effectively leave untouched the current “Indult” status quo. It will amount to little more than an “exhortation” for bishops to be “more generous” in allowing celebration of the Tridentine Mass.

Yes, and yes.

Rumors originally surfaced in early October 2006 that the motu proprio was imminent, with some claims that Benedict had already signed the document (unitypublishing.com/liturgy/TridentineMassReturn.htm)).

Interestingly, the Society of St. Pius X promoted a rosary novena in October for that very intention.

It appeared, then, that there was fierce opposition from both the Curia and from bishops around the world, and even one report that French bishops would go into formal schism over such an announcement.

Then the reports began to surface that the Tridentine Mass would be permitted unless “forbidden in writing” by the bishop (a compromise to the hostility of these bishops?)

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article667813.ece [from October 11]

[quote=TimesOnline]The new indult would permit any priest to introduce the Tridentine Mass to his church, anywhere in the world, unless his bishop has explicitly forbidden it in writing.
[/quote]

In effect, then, such a directive would simply change the status of the Tridentine Mass from “forbidden unless expressly permitted” to “permitted unless expressly forbidden”. Under such terms, what would happen is that the Tridentine Mass will be offerred more and more in only the dioceses of bishops either favorable to the Tridentine Mass or at least too apathetic to bother forbidding it in writing.

With so many additional delays since last October, the prognosis does not appear very good. If in fact the original delays were due to compromises with hostile bishops, it would seems probable that the subsequent delays imply that additional compromises have been made in the past few months.

In that case, one might hope for little more than an exhortation for the bishops to be more generous with regard to Tridentine Mass. And nothing will change.

Good luck with it. Perhaps some posters here will join. I voted on your poll that it will become default, unless forbidden by the Bishop.

Yes, that’s my opinion as well.

I can already imagine the uproar from the bishops about the many pastoral concerns (alas, the good shepherds must protect the sheep from the ravages of the Tridentine Mass – never you mind the horrible confusion and loss of faith caused by the original liturgical reforms), logistical concerns (many probably legitimate – can you say, “altar girls” at Tridentine Masses), etc. In fact, the “confusion among the faithful” “pastoral concerns” card is the one they’ve been playing in pushing back against correcting the mistranslations of the Novus Ordo Missae into Enlgish (including an egregious one of the words of consecration instituted by Our Lord).

How, if the Vatican, can’t get the bishops to abide by simple / relatively minor corrections of these bad translations, will they be able to get the bishops to comply with such a motu proprio? – short of bringing down the hammer of papal authority, which recent popes have shown an unwillingness to do (oh, with the notable exception of Archibishop Lefebvre and a small handful of outrageous heresiarchs).

I don’t know the answer to your question. I wonder how many current priests know Latin?

Not only that, but how many priests know how to celebrate the Tridentine Latin Mass?

I know there are at least two seminaries in the U.S. to train priests to celebrate it (one run by the FSSP and the other run by the Institute of Christ the King (I think) ).

Thanks. I guess what I wanted to do was to create a place where Traditional Catholics can discuss a broad range of subjects, among other Traditional Catholics, rather than to have a forum ABOUT Traditional Catholicism.

I have actually grown rather weary of polemics over the years and prefer to discuss things regarding Catholic spirituality, devotion, theology, philosophy, etc. When you have a sub-forum within a larger forum, it tends to become a forum ABOUT Traditional Catholicism, rather than a forum FOR Traditional Catholics.

I believe that many of the same priests who would be motivated to offer the Tridentine Mass probably already self-taught themselves Latin – if, as is likely, they did not learn it in the seminary. Contrary to popular belief, one need not be fluent in Latin to be able to offer the Tridentine Mass – one need simply be able to read and pronounce it. :slight_smile:

So this is really a solicitation of CAF members to join your forum? :ehh:

I think you’ll find the same-old same-old. No discussion, just bashing.

I didn’t vote, because I have no idea what Pope Benedict XVI will allow…

However, some of the concerns posted I think are a little overblown.

  1. There may be some (I think a very small number) who will not follow the proper rubrics for a TLM, but I’m sure that Traditional Catholics will rightly inform the Bishop and/or Vatican of the abuses. The problem right now with the abuses of the Pauline Mass, is that many of the people either are unaware of the abuses or they support them. It’s only a few of us “trouble makers” who make a stink about them. Do you have any doubt that Traditional Catholics will be vigilent?

  2. Priests can learn Latin and/or how to offer a TLM and teach their parishioners at the same time, if they are interested in restoring the TLM in the parish. I don’t think parishes are going to be forced to offer the TLM.

Look at the upcoming changes (if they indeed happen) as a positive opportunity to encourage Traditional Catholicism. :thumbsup:

Oh btw…I found this to be sort of funny…

short of bringing down the hammer of papal authority, which recent popes have shown an unwillingness to do (oh, with the notable exception of Archibishop Lefebvre and a small handful of outrageous heresiarchs).

I don’t think you meant to imply that Archbiship Lefebvre used the “hammer of papal authority.” :stuck_out_tongue:

I have actually grown rather weary of polemics over the years and prefer to discuss things regarding Catholic spirituality, devotion, theology, philosophy, etc. When you have a sub-forum within a larger forum, it tends to become a forum ABOUT Traditional Catholicism, rather than a forum FOR Traditional Catholics

:amen: Although I’d have to quibble about your “for” and “about” categories. I think many could benefit from an “about” category that discusses “Catholic spirituality, devotion, theology, philosophy, etc” no matter which Mass they are attached to. Many things in Catholic spirituality, devotion, theology, philosophy, etc. are timeless. It all falls apart when someone mentions the Novus Ordo.

No, not really. I wanted to get some more opinions to the poll I posted there. Unfortunately, I have very few members right now.

There’s a lot of talk about the motu proprio in the abstract, and yet, depending upon how it’s ultimately worded, it may or may not do anything.

April 19th anyone? – since the 16th has passed uneventfully.

Also, I can generally only post early mornings or in the evenings, since the board is blocked at my place of employment :slight_smile:

As for the bashing, as Administrator I can help set the tone for the forum.

“Bashing” is contrary to true Catholic spirituality. If I disagree with my brother or sister, then I either 1) pray that I come to know the truth if I am wrong or 2) rejoice that my brother or sister knows the truth.

Discussions are about arriving at a deeper knowledge and love of God – otherwise, they’re completely worthless.

Just omitted a preposition – except against Archbishop Lefebvre.

I don’t either obviously. It’s fun to speculate though. It should be understood that the poll answers involve pure speculation – unless of course we have among the forum members the usual “trusted sources inside the Vatican”. Oh, wait, they’re actually LESS likely to be correct. :smiley:

  1. There may be some (I think a very small number) who will not follow the proper rubrics for a TLM, but I’m sure that Traditional Catholics will rightly inform the Bishop and/or Vatican of the abuses.

Probably. Question is whether the bishops will take any action to stop the abuses.

The problem right now with the abuses of the Pauline Mass, is that many of the people either are unaware of the abuses or they support them. It’s only a few of us “trouble makers” who make a stink about them. Do you have any doubt that Traditional Catholics will be vigilent?

No, not at all. I just think that the same bishops who ignore complaints about the Novus Ordo Missae abuses will similarly turn a deaf ear to complaints about Tridentine Rite abuses.

  1. Priests can learn Latin and/or how to offer a TLM and teach their parishioners at the same time, if they are interested in restoring the TLM in the parish. I don’t think parishes are going to be forced to offer the TLM.

According to the original speculation, it won’t be up to the “parishes” but rather up to individual priests. That’s where the logistical nightmares will happen. Which is precisely why I believe it WILL ultimately be left up to parishes and bishops and so there will be little or no change in the status quo.

Look at the upcoming changes (if they indeed happen) as a positive opportunity to encourage Traditional Catholicism. :thumbsup:

If in fact the motu proprio results in a spread of the Tridentine Mass, only good things could come from that. Which is why I posed the poll – I’m preparing to be disappointed.

In October, I get excited, then nothing. Rumors resurface close to Christmas. Nothing. More rumors around Holy Thursday. Nothing. Then the Holy Father’s birthday. Nothing. April 19th anyone? If not then, when? It’s almost as if someone is just deliberately playing with our emotions. :o

Oh btw…I found this to be sort of funny…

I’m glad you liked it :wink:

So far it appears that the majority feel the same way I do about what will happen.

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