If God is soo forgiving, then why does he send us to hell?


#1

Listen,
God always says he forgives, we’re his sons, he loves us etc. yet at the end of our life, if we were a bad perosn, then bam, he sends us to hel for ALL of eternity, no turning back, just non stop pain, torment etc. And im not sure, but if i were bad, then i know my biological father would always forgive me, help me and take care of me, even if i dont want it or im still going in the other direction, he still gives it to me and takes care of me cause he knows its best, he doesnt just send me off to some place to burn for all my life.

now dont get me wrong, im not having a go at God, but im just asking.

and dont judge me on this, as i have nearly any knowlage of this as for i am of young age, and this is why i am asking to find out, and understand what cna/will happen.

Kinda Regards,

Brushy


#2

Because silly, God doesn’t send anyone to hell. You send yourself to hell. As I understand it, after you die you get presented with a choice of two doors. One leads to clouds and harps and eternal bowing. The other leads to having hot pokers shoved up your bum for all eternity. And you of course will pick the latter. See you there.


#3

Stephen Colbert has an answer for you:
colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/149094/february-11-2008/philip-zimbardo

It’s like the last two minutes or so, but the whole thing is worth listening to.


#4

Because God doesn’t force people to accept His mercy when they don’t want it. People who go to hell choose it by refusing to repent unto death.


#5

You have to ask to be forgiven. There can be no forgiveness without repentence. If you are not sorry, God can not forgive you.

He gives you until the last moment of your life to ask forgiveness. If you ask it will be granted. Sounds pretty generous to me.

God Bless


#6

God dosn’t send people to hell people chose to go there. Their nature is fixed upon death and they would not accept heaven if offered. I have a link to a letter from hell which might help explain this. Larry
catholic-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8139


#7

I don’t think it’s so much a matter of God sending us to hell as giving us a choice. God doesn’t force us to accept his love. Right up until the last moment of our lives he offers love and invites us to accept it. But the choice to reject it is always there for us.


#8

Well, for one, we’re all bad people, and we don’t merit entrance to heaven by being good. Secondly eternal torment is a false doctrine. Problem solved.


#9

[quote=Brushy3]Listen,
God always says he forgives, we’re his sons, he loves us etc. yet at the end of our life, if we were a bad perosn, then bam, he sends us to hel for ALL of eternity, no turning back, just non stop pain, torment etc. And im not sure, but if i were bad, then i know my biological father would always forgive me, help me and take care of me, even if i dont want it or im still going in the other direction, he still gives it to me and takes care of me cause he knows its best, he doesnt just send me off to some place to burn for all my life.

now dont get me wrong, im not having a go at God, but im just asking.

and dont judge me on this, as i have nearly any knowlage of this as for i am of young age, and this is why i am asking to find out, and understand what cna/will happen.

Kinda Regards,

Brushy
[/quote]

People go to Hell because they choose to go there. Hell is separation from God. God is Love, and all goodness and all love are in Him. When people on Earth choose to reject love or goodness in their actions, each time they do this, they are choosing separation from God. Though many times our acts of separation from God are not great enough that we are rejecting God completely, so He still has room to save us even while we are stained with these sins. These are venial sins. Each time we choose something unloving (a sin) we are making the choice to separate ourselves from God (because all love is in God). That is our choice, not His. He tries to get everyone to live in love and goodness all the time. He forgives us and desires our transformation that we might be fully loving, which is to be fully godly and one with Christ (which, by the way, is the essence of Heaven).

Many people choose to commit mortal sins, which are to choose something gravely evil and to do it knowingly, deliberately, against God’s will. When they choose to defy God, knowing that their decisions are opposed to God and according to His Word are gravely evil, they are rejecting Love Himself and all that flows from it. They are rejecting the essence of Heaven, which is unity with God, by choosing to separate themselves in a very serious way, elevating themselves in their lives above God. This is what it means to reject Heaven; it is entirely our human choice, for God wants everyone to be in Heaven. Only sincere repentance and Christ’s forgiveness (which He is always glad to give) can restore their souls. People in mortal sin have to repent and they should go to the Sacrament of Confession.

How can someone live eternally in the fullness of Love when they deliberately reject, in matters of grave importance, those things that are loving on Earth? God won’t abolish their Free Will by making them love. If they reject love here, they won’t live in it forever.


#10

no one who accepts God’s forgiveness goes to hell, in fact, the only way to get there is to refuse God’s forgiveness, which He never forces.


#11

Define force. If someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to give them your wallet, is that forcing? I suppose you could argue you still have a choice, but you hardly have a real choice there. We have a choice between obedience and being cast into Hell (at least that’s the popular notion). Hardly a free choice.

Did God force Saul/Paul to repent? Did God force Jonah? This whole notion that God doesn’t force things on is, despite being popular in many churches, is blatantly false.

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:44). The word for “draws” is Helkuo, it’s the same word to describe when the Apostles hauled in the miraculous catch of fish, and when Paul was dragged before the authorities in Acts 16 and 21.


#12

I totally agree - what kind of “love” is it when it is given under threat of eternal torture? If my child refuses to love me or chooses a lifestyle I disapprove of, would people think it would be all right for me to barbarically torture them? Would people see me as worthy of worship?


#13

God doesn’t “barbarically torture” anyone. God’s love for the damned is experienced as fire; i.e., there is nothing of those spirits of the damned that can correspond and respond to love, and so God’s overwhelming love must necessarily be experienced as eternal fire and torment. Perhaps another way to express this is to consider Scripture’s words that “our God is a consuming fire” - in order to survive in and find joy and salvation in that fire one has to himself become one with the fire of Divine Love - this the damned cannot do because they have no desire to love God.


#14

it is not a gun to the head situation, it is a jump off the cliff situation

you are free to take God’s hand and come with him to safety, freedom and eternal joy. He stretches out his hand, but you have to take it. Or you are free to jump into the abyss. Nobody is pushing you, no one casts you into hell, you take that leap yourself.

You choose between love and hate, fullness and emptiness.
God offers complete and total love, beyond your imagination, you either love in return or you hate.
God offers fullness, to fill you with love to your capacity, which is beyond your imagining. You allow him to fill you with His love, or you close yourself off by your own choice from love for all eternity.


#15

Very well said! :thumbsup:


#16

** patg **and ckempston, it’s not a threat. Have either of you read my post, above? Eternity without God is the natural consequence of choosing to reject God. God is Love. All virtue, all goodness, all things worthwhile and valuable are found in Him. Without goodness, there is nothing worthwhile in life, only misery. Therefore the choice to reject God is the choice to reject Goodness, Love, Mercy, Joy, Peace, all of what God is.

Every time we sin, we are rejecting God, because sin is contrary to His nature. God is Love and sin is UNLOVING. It is opposition to God, and it carries with it a kind of interior unsatisfaction, restlessness and unhappiness. When people do what is wrong, in an interior way, they suffer. Some people even cut themselves, burn themselves or commit suicide out of their misery or despair . . . that’s a foretaste of Hell. All our sins (and their accompanying negative consequences) are a foretaste of Hell, because Hell is COMPLETE separation from God, the choice to completely reject all love, goodness, peace, mercy, fulfillment, all that brings satisfaction to the soul because all of these are one with God. Whenever a soul commits a mortal sin, it knows what is good and right but deliberately rejects it in order to commit an extremely grievous violation against what is right. That is the rejection of God. It is self-separation from God. It is choosing what is absolutely unloving, and its consequences, instead of what is loving and love’s consequences. Mortal sin is the rejection of love and therefore is the rejection of God, because God is Love.

1 John 4:20-21 says, “If anyone says, ‘I love God,’ yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.”

1 John talks very well about the nature of sin and God, and how sinning is separating oneself from God, because sin is choosing what is unloving and contrary to love’s nature while God is Love. The verses I just brought up show that people have to love people in order to love God. We have to live in love to live in God, because all goodness is united with God and all our rejection of goodness is consequently rejection of God.

Here are a couple more very relevant passages:

1 John 4:12, “No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.”

By loving, we are made one with God, according to that Scripture. That is because, as John teaches, God is Love.

1 John 4:16-17, “And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.”

The passage above talks about how uniting with love is uniting with God . . . living in love is living in God because God is Love.

Being unloving, therefore, is being without God. All sin is unloving and consequently is separation from God.

The more unloving people are in this life, the more miserable they feel. This truth we can probably all accept is the same thing as saying, “the more separate people are from God, the more they suffer.”

When each person dies, they receive the completeness of what they gave themselves to in life. If they gave themselves to becoming more loving, they become completely united with Love. If they are gave themselves to becoming more unloving, they will become completely Unloving. This is the withdrawal of all good from the soul, the complete self-chosen rejection of God. This is Hell. The completeness of misery. Self-chosen torture. Each soul reaps what it sows. It is plainly just.

Jesus warns us about Hell, He doesn’t threaten. When a parent takes his child aside and says, “if you keep doing drugs, bingeing on alcohol and hanging out with the wrong crowd, you’re going to ruin your life,” they are doing exactly the same thing as Jesus does when He warns people about the consequences of rejecting Love.

Now these truths about the nature of love and separation from love canNOT allow us to slip into the apostasy that we don’t need Jesus Christ, for “we can just try to be loving and that’s all we need.” Jesus is Love Himself. Without His help, we aren’t strong enough and cannot make ourselves good enough to truly pursue what is loving . . . we will always mar ourselves with the unloving in an inescapable way. We need Love to becoming Loving, and Jesus is Love. His Cross is our salvation.

We cannot unite with Love while rejecting Love; we cannot have God while rejecting Jesus.


#17

Very well put.


#18

That’s like one big long non sequitur. It is a threat. It’s also a warning as you say, but it is not ONLY a warning. All threats are warnings, but not all warnings are threats. Your example of the parent is a warning. The reason it’s not a threat is because the parent is not taking action based on the behavior, simply pointing out a consequnce.

The only way to say it’s merely a warning and not a threat is with a bunch of (unfortunately typical) Catholic mental gymnastics. Punishment is not (merely) a natural consequence of sin. It is something God takes an *active role *in, and if he so chooses, he can end it at any time either by annihilation or redemption.

God tells us he will punish us if we don’t act the way he tells us to. It’s not just a natural consequence: If you jump off a house, you will hurt yourself. It is rather a threat of direct action based on your behavior: If you don’t repent, I will punish you. Catholics make it out to be some natural consequence that removes the direct action of God from the picture. The scriptures do not allow this interpretation by their very language. God quite explicitly says, “If you do X, I will do Y.” That, by definition, is a threat.

A better analogy than the one you provide of the parent warning a child about ruining his or her life is a parent warning a child not to hit a sibling: “If you hit your sister, I will spank you.” It’s a threat, not a natural consequence, and this is much closer of a parallel of God’s interaction with humanity than your example.

The way God gives these warnings indicates that he takes a direct role in punishment, not that it’s just some natural thing that “just happens” as you seem to be indicating.


#19

I don’t know if you followed the reasoning. You haven’t pointed out any logical flaws in it, but have merely labeled it “Catholic mental gymnastics,” and said your personal interpretation of the Bible doesn’t agree with it.

I gave a theological explanation for how sin logically and naturally results in Hell. St. Paul wrote this too, saying, “each man reaps what he sows.”

[quote=James 1:13-15]No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.

Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death.
[/quote]

Sin gives birth to death, our chosen evil action (partial separation from God) resulting in Hell (complete separation from God, 2 Thess. 1:9). St. James describes this as a natural progression and a free choice. St. Paul describes the same:

[quote="Galations 6:7-8]Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit.
[/quote]

These saints are exactly right. SO ARE the ones who talk about Hell as a judgment from God. It is, as I said, exactly just, yet it is also entirely self-chosen torment. It is against God’s will so strongly that God sent His Son to die that we might not choose it, but be one with Him forever.

This is not an either/or, a situation where it has to be a punishment or a consequence. It is a punishment in the sense that it is God’s justice, but it is entirely our choice and our wills and not God’s. It is the complete elevation of our wills in our lives, in fact! It is the supremacy of our will dominating and triumphing over us completely. There is no more subjection to love in us (which is subjection to Love, God). There is no more goodness in us, for this is God and we’ve rejected Him. There is only hate, cruelty and all the perversions that are absolutely contrary to our sinful natures. We choose separation from God (Love) for ourselves on Earth and we live in it for eternity, our own wills in complete dominion of us, God’s will cast out, in all he logical consequences of this . . . absolute torment, rage and damnation.

The Judgment of Hell, as I said in my last post, is just. It is a just and well deserved penalty. We choose separation from God many times in this life when we choose sin, but He always fights this, trying to bring us mercy and grace, if we’ll only accept it. God did everything He could, even dying on a Cross, to keep them from Hell because He loves us and wants us to live eternally in His Love. The only other way to prevent our choices is for Him to have destroyed our Free Will. But He will let people make their own decisions, even if they horribly abuse that freedom.

That is completely false. God cannot force us to choose to be loving without destroying our Free Wills. Consequently He cannot make us redeem ourselves. He also made us eternal souls so that we could live in unity with Him forever in Love. You make a curse out of a gift, but it is only a curse to people that wickedly make it so, just as our minds and bodies, which were created for goodness, can be abused as curses because of our own filthy choices of what to do with them.

People tend to find it understandable that God wouldn’t predestine us and force us all to do whatever He wants like puppets on a string . . . yet some still suggest He could annihilate us, and that would be better. This is ludicrous. They won’t accept Calvinistic Predestination because they like Free Will, but they somehow imagine that Annihilation, which destroys our Free Wills and every other gift we have from God, including ourselves, would be better!

Such an attack on the dignity of man is radically opposed to the ways of life, and God is Life.

Ecclesiasties 3:11, “He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.”

When we can fathom neither the beginning nor the end, we are foolish to spit on a beautiful gift from God and make as if life eternal is a curse. Eternal life is beautiful, and it is meant to be beautiful and loving. It only is not if we choose that it not be.

In the same way, our minds are beautiful, and our bodies, and our wills, and our spirits . . . we are a dignified, magnificent creation. Our bodies can be a curse, though, when we do evil. God allows us to sometimes do evil and suffer for it, and many people will understand and accept this in the temporal because of Free Will and their ability to accept justice on Earth. However, they won’t accept people doing evil and suffering for it eternally, which is senseless considering they accept the same things in the temporal because we acknowledge the value of Free Will.


#20

People here all agree God is a Loving God and I also agree. It is important also to state God is not just Love. God is infinite in all His Attributes. Including Justice. Holy Anger etc.

God is as infinitely Just as He is Loving. It would be an Injustice to allow persons who of their own choice refused to Love God. Especially when they have been given all the information necessary to make an informed choice. It is all available to us.

I agree about the force though in this sense as St. Peter said, Where else is there to go. Only you have the words of Eternal life. The world and the devil and our human passions have the words of death. We can listen to all the words and then chose what words we want to listen to. God not only loves us but respects our free will enough to allow us even to reject Him. The punishments of Hell are tortures but they are just and in line with the sins we committed. The parts of the body and the parts of the souls used in committing sins are fair game to the devils to torture. Punishments will be aligned justly with our degree of sin. All just and fair. Heaven is entirely unfair. It is joy and happiness far beyond anything we could earn. It is a gift for making the right choices. This is our freedom and our power the right to make choices.


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