If God knows the future


#21

[quote=Matt16_18]pre = before
destine = destiny

The reason God wills all men to be saved is that God created all men to be with him for eternity. It is also correct to say that before God created the first man, that he had a destiny in mind for all men.**Catechism of the Catholic Church

1711** Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (GS 15 § 2).

398 In that sin [original sin] man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.

[/quote]

The point is: the term predestination only refers to those who will actually be saved; it does not refer to those who God wills to be saved.

If man had not sinned all would be predestined. Since man has sinned, only those who God, in His foreknowledge, knows will be saved are the predestined.


#22

[quote=Matt16_18]The word “predestine” is used only three times in scripture. In no case is it ever used to convey the Calvinist heresy that God creates the vast majority of humanity as worthless trash predestined for the burn pile. :rolleyes:
[/quote]

I think I understand where you are confused. You are confusing predestination with the Calvanist heresy of “double predestination”. Double predestination means God created and predestined certain people for heaven, and others for hell. Nothing they do effects their salvation as it was predetermined by God in advance. That is a heresy.

God did not predetermine the damnation of anyone, but, since He is all knowing, He does know who will be damned, and who will be saved.

Those who are damned were not predestined for it. They were created for heaven, but ended in hell. The predestined are those who were not only were created for heaven, but actually make it there.

God knows who will be saved and who will not. Those who God “foreknows” will be saved, are the predestined.

Romans 8:29-30 “For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son: that he might be the Firstborn amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.”


#23

[quote=Matt16_18]The word “predestine” is used only three times in scripture. In no case is it ever used to convey the Calvinist heresy that God creates the vast majority of humanity as worthless trash predestined for the burn pile. :rolleyes:
[/quote]

Histrionics is your only response?


#24

[quote=USMC]Just as we can view the ruler from above and see all of the inches at once, so God views time in the same way - all at once - since God exists outside of time. To God the past and the future exist in the present.

Since God is all knowing, he obviously knows what choices we will make, and He knows if we will be saved or not. If God did not know this, there would be a defect in His knowlege: His knowledge would not be infinite, and thus God would not be all-knowing.
[/quote]

Your analogy cannot stand up under scriptural scrutiny.

Is 40:13 asks the rhetorical questions:

13 Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord,
Or as His counselor has informed Him?

The expected answer to both questions is no one.

If God sees in the future what someone will do, the Spirit of the Lord is directed by the one viewed.

If God sees in the future what someone will do, the Spirit of the Lord has taken counsel with the one viewed, and the one viewed has informed Him.

Therefore, the Spirit of the Lord has learned something that it had not known before, and if the Spirit learns, it changes. We are told that God is immutable, IOW, He does not change.

Moreover, in order for one to believe, one must be the recipient of God’s grace.

How could God see anyone believe, without their first receiving His grace?

[quote=USMC]Yes, the term predestined refers to those who will be saved, not to those who God “wills to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”. God wills all men to be saved, but all men will not be saved.
[/quote]

I am assuming that you are referring to 1 Tim 2:3-4 which reads:

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Your understanding of that verse is that God wills all men to be saved, that is different from what the verse is saying.

The verse says He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

It does not say:

God has willed to save all men, and He has willed that they come to a knowledge of the truth, and they will do so, unfailingly.

If, as you say, God has willed, or purposed, to save all men, then all men would be saved, as God’s will/purpose cannot be thwarted.

The verse in Timothy expresses God’s desire, not His purpose. He has purposed to save only those He foreknew.


#25

[quote=Matt16_18]The word “predestine” is used only three times in scripture.
[/quote]

In fact, the word prooridzo which is translated predestine appears six times:

Acts 4:28
Rom 8:29
Rom 8:30
1 Cor 2:7
Eph 1:5
Eph 1:11


#26

[quote=sandusky]Your analogy cannot stand up under scriptural scrutiny.

Is 40:13 asks the rhetorical questions:

13 Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord,
Or as His counselor has informed Him?

The expected answer to both questions is no one.

If God sees in the future what someone will do, the Spirit of the Lord is directed by the one viewed.
[/quote]

That makes no sense. God does not see “into” the future. The future is present to God, just as the “present” is present to us.

[quote=]If God sees in the future what someone will do, the Spirit of the Lord has taken counsel with the one viewed, and the one viewed has informed Him.
[/quote]

Again, that makes no sense. Just because God is all knowing, and therefore knows what each person will choose, does not mean that the person making the choice “informs” God: it means just the opposite. God already knew what the person would do before they did it, so their choosing only confirmed what God already knew, it didn’t give Him knew knowledge.

[quote=]Therefore, the Spirit of the Lord has learned something that it had not known before, and if the Spirit learns, it changes. We are told that God is immutable, IOW, He does not change.
[/quote]

God, who is all knowing, does not learn. He already knows.

[quote=]Moreover, in order for one to believe, one must be the recipient of God’s grace.

How could God see anyone believe, without their first receiving His grace?
[/quote]

God exists outside of time and views all of time at once. He can see those who are in the state of grace and those who are not. He does not see anyone believe before they believe. That would be a contradiction. God may see them as an unbeliever at one point in time; then, after they recieve the grace of faith and correspond to it, he will see them as a believer at another point in time. (Using the ruler example: On the first inch they were an unbeliever, but on the second inch they beleived.)

[quote=]I am assuming that you are referring to 1 Tim 2:3-4 which reads:

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Your understanding of that verse is that God wills all men to be saved, that is different from what the verse is saying.

The verse says He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

It does not say:

God has willed to save all men, and He has willed that they come to a knowledge of the truth, and they will do so, unfailingly.

If, as you say, God has willed, or purposed, to save all men, then all men would be saved, as God’s will/purpose cannot be thwarted.
[/quote]

Nope. There are two levels of God’s Will. There is the antecedent will of God, which “wills all men to be saved” (most Bibles transated it as I quoted it), and the consequent Will of God, which allows some to be damned. The anticedent Will of God is what He “desires” - what he wills -, the consequent will of God, is what God allows.

[quote=]The verse in Timothy expresses God’s desire, not His purpose. He has purposed to save only those He foreknew.
[/quote]

Are you Catholic or Protestant? If you are Protestant I can understand your being confused. If you are Catholic read the Summa of St. Thomas where he discussed the anticedent will of God and the consequent will of God. You should be able to find it by doing a google search.

If you are a Protestant, the only hope of cure for your confusion is to join the Church and submit to its teachings. Aside from that (if you are a Protestant), you are without any hope at all.


#27

I am not confused. :rolleyes: I certainly understand that the Calvinism that sandusky believes in teaches the heresy that God predestines most men for damnation without regard to their demerits.

Those who are damned were not predestined for it. They were created for heaven, but ended in hell.

I agree that God is omniscient, and that he knows who will reject the grace offered to them for their salvation. The damned end up in hell because they used their free will to choose unrepentance instead of repentance. They are not in hell because that was God’s perfect will for them. I believe we are saying the same thing here.

If man had not sinned all would be predestined.

I don’t know what you are trying to say here. God’s perfect will for man is not contingent upon anything that man does. God’s perfect will for all men is the same – his perfect will is that all men should become partakers in the divine nature. All men were created by God to be with him for eternity.

The predestined are those who were not only were created for heaven, but actually make it there.

It seems to me that you are putting unnecessary restrictions upon the word “predestine” – in your opinion, only those who enter into the heavenly beatitude can be said to be “predestined”. But scripture doesn’t place such a narrow range of meaning upon the word predestine. For example: The kings of the earth set themselves in array, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’ – for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place.

Acts 4:26-28 In Acts 4:26 the word “predestined” is simply speaking about God’s omniscience, and not about who is saved and who is damned.


#28

[quote=USMC] That makes no sense. God does not see “into” the future. The future is present to God, just as the “present” is present to us.
[/quote]

You are backpeddling, and resorting to philosophical gibberish.

Here is what you said in your previous post:

[quote=USMC]…God views time…
[/quote]

What is that but looking into the future?

I have shown you that you philosophical notions, no matter how you try to explain them do not work.

God does not consult with His creature by seeing what His creature will do. If He does that, He has counseled with the creature, and learned something He did not know before.

Again, God does not see who will choose Him, as you incorrectly say in your previous post, because in order for one to choose God, one must first receive God’s grace.

Your analogy is wrong.

[quote=USMC] God, who is all knowing, does not learn. He already knows.
[/quote]

That is just another pseudo-profound statement. Tell me, how does God know what He knows?

[quote=USMC] Nope. There are two levels of God’s Will. There is the antecedent will of God, which “wills all men to be saved” (most Bibles transated it as I quoted it), and the consequent Will of God, which allows some to be damned. The anticedent Will of God is what He “desires” - what he wills -, the consequent will of God, is what God allows.
[/quote]

Where does your notion of antecedent will and consequent will come from? It is not from the Scripture.

You say ”most Bibles translated it as I quoted it. I have reviewed 22 different translations, only two translate the way you have quoted it; that is not most.

[quote=USMC] Are you Catholic or Protestant? If you are Protestant I can understand your being confused. If you are Catholic read the Summa of St. Thomas where he discussed the anticedent will of God and the consequent will of God. You should be able to find it by doing a google search.
[/quote]

You are confused. Spend more time in Scripture, and less time with Aquinas.


#29

FYI, sandusky is a Calvinist.


#30

Where does the Calvinist notion of God’s public will and God’s secret will come from?


#31

[quote=Matt16_18]FYI, sandusky is a Calvinist.
[/quote]

Now I understand why he is so confused.

[quote=Sandusky]I have shown you that you philosophical notions, no matter how you try to explain them do not work.

God does not consult with His creature by seeing what His creature will do. If He does that, He has counseled with the creature, and learned something He did not know before.
[/quote]

Question: If God knows, in advance, what a creature will do, how would he “learn” by seeing the creature actually do what He already knew he was going to do?

Example: God knows that John Doe is going to steal a newspaper from his neighbors yard the next day. The following day John Doe does indeed steal the newspaper from his neighbors yard.

Did God’s knowledge increase after John Doe stole the newspaper?

According to your “reasoning” it did. Explain how.


#32

[quote=Verbum]Hi James,

Not only did God create out of love but because He wished that there should be love in the world. Without free will there is no love.If you cannot help doing good then you are not acting out of love. For there to be love there had to be the possibility of sinning.

As for people going to hell, well, we don’t know that anybody has gone there yet. We can’t even be sure about Judas. So let’s do our best ourselves not to go there and leave the rest to God’s mercy.

Verbum
[/quote]

The dark world begins with Lucifer and ends with Hell. A conflagration of torment, confusion and total isolation felt with utmost emptiness; dying over and over again to meet the same redundant non-growth as a toy for demonic devices. As you thrust thy self-headlong into the void of helplessness where sorrow is so heavy it leaves an imprint in concrete. A movie that recently played across the nation named “The Cell “is symbolic to hell, yet hell is far worse. A chaotic realm where thirst is ongoing and just a drop of water would be a luxury. Vomit and clouds that suffocate, display a dreadful sight, a serpentine liar sells you out with not a charitable compassionate bone within. Furthermore, endless paths lead to boredom frustration and sinking emotions of no escape; where Goliath dark pillars of obsidian reign supreme await the faithless. Black holes that have never witnessed light drive boiling pools where crowds of cowards gather whose only desire is to beguile and gossip you into further misery. The bowls of hell encompasses fumes of odor reeking of decaying flesh which choke the nostrils. There are constant flames that wick around like insatiable mosquitoes, gnawing at you and never letting up. When you step into hell and remember how absorbed you where in the worldly things, memories of choice come to you as pony rides. In addition, you will recall the instances when you could have chose kindness instead of cruelty; as well the many times you denied Christ when you could have believed in Christ. You said to yourself, I’m me and selfish I always will be. All this increases the hell that you chose. My hope is you change and decide for Christ and repent now and forever, and not go the devil’s route. Make haste to Christ and compassion.


#33

[quote=USMC]Question: If God knows, in advance, what a creature will do, how would he “learn” by seeing the creature actually do what He already knew he was going to do?

Example: God knows that John Doe is going to steal a newspaper from his neighbors yard the next day. The following day John Doe does indeed steal the newspaper from his neighbors yard.

Did God’s knowledge increase after John Doe stole the newspaper?

According to your “reasoning” it did. Explain how.
[/quote]

It seems that you have come to your senses regarding your unworkable scheme of how God knows what will come to pass. That’s good.

I asked you a question, and you have not answered. If you do, then perhaps I will respond to your silly example.

I’ll ask again, and more pointedly: Tell me how God knows what will happen in His creation?


#34

[quote=sandusky]It seems that you have come to your senses regarding your unworkable scheme of how God knows what will come to pass. That’s good.

I asked you a question, and you have not answered. If you do, then perhaps I will respond to your silly example.

I’ll ask again, and more pointedly: Tell me how God knows what will happen in His creation?
[/quote]

So, you won’t answer my question.

I will answer yours: God knows what will happen in His creation because God is all knowing. How is that so hard for you to understand?

But, maybe you question is HOW does God know? If that is your question, this is the answer: God does not exist in time as we do. Time itself is a creation of God. God is outside of time and “sees” (intellectually speaking) all that takes place at once. He sees the time of Adam and Eve and the time we are in all at once because He exists outside of time. I don’t understand why that is so hard for you to grasp.

Let’s take my ruler example. Let’s say the ruler represents the “time” that God created, with one inch being equal to 1000 years. The first inch is the time of Adam and Eve, the 3rd inch was the time of Noah, etc. As time moves on, the previous inches become the past, and the inches that have not yet arrived are the future. To a person living on the 5th inch, the 3rd and 4th inches are past and the 6th and 7th inch are the future.

But, since we are outside of that “time”, we can view all of the inches at once. Thus, we can see the first inch, when Adam and Eve lived, and the last inch all at once. It is the same with God: He is outside of time, and can see it all at once, just as we could view all of the inches of a rule at once from above.

I have used the example of the ruler numerous times and no one has ever had a problem grasping it. You are the first person ever that has not been able to grasp it. Why can everyone else comprehend this, and you cannot?


#35

How can God create a soul knowing what they will do without first intending them to do this? If he creates a soul and then finds out what will will happen to it in the process - as he makes it - then he has learnt something new. He must create the soul with intention, and their desintiny (predestiny) must be his intention. So in essence God must have created some to go to heaven, some hell, some to be open to grace, other not to be.

That I think is the the Calvinist position, it does however contradict a bit with sandusky’s post on another thread…

In this scenario - the quote above - God chooses who he will give grace to, like a lottery. Rather than creating some people spiritual (open to grace) and others not so. In effect God has creatd certain men unable to do so form the earlier definition of predestination, but the above quate simultaneousely implies all men are unable to while saying “He has not created man unable to do so”. Doesn’t make any sense.


#36

Sorry could not edit out the spelling mistakes from the above post.

Which is it, are some creaetd with grace in mind, being able to receive things spiritually, or are we all as bad as one another, with God choosing who will recieve grace by a means unknown?


#37

[quote=USMC] But, maybe you question is HOW does God know? If that is your question, this is the answer: God does not exist in time as we do. Time itself is a creation of God. God is outside of time and “sees” (intellectually speaking) all that takes place at once. He sees the time of Adam and Eve and the time we are in all at once because He exists outside of time. I don’t understand why that is so hard for you to grasp.
[/quote]

I understand, and I grasp what you are saying, and I have shown you, with scriptural support, why it does not work.

Additionally, what you are proposing is nothing but conjecture. When was your last trip to eternity? That is not a facetious question. You are describing something that is not within your experience. Scripture does not describe the intricacies of eternity. God is called “eternal,” in terms of being from “everlasting to everlasting,” the “ancient of days,” one whose “years are throughout all generations,” etc. What you are doing is philosophizing, and philosophizing breaks down theologically when scripture is brought to bear upon it.

Scripture tells us how God knows what will happen in His creation: He knows, because He as declared what will be (Is 46:10ff). That declaration is best understood, I think, in terms of a fiat declaration, in other words, an authoritative declaration of “Let it be so….” This is seen in the creation sequence—and God said Let there be…and there was…—He has determined what will come to pass, and how it will come to pass.

How did God know that Noah would be righteous, and that Noah would obey God, and build the ark, and that God would save Noah and his family and destroy the rest of mankind? It is because God declared that it would be so. How did God know that Abram would do as God directed, and that through Abram all of the nations of the earth would be blessed? It is because God declared that it would be so. How did God know that Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah, and the family of David? It is because God declared that it would be so. How did God know that the Christ would be delivered up for crucifixion by those who crucified Him? It is because God declared that it would be so. How did God know that Judas Iscariot would betray the Christ? It is because God declared it would be so. How does God know anything? It is because God has declared what will be.

And it is important to understand, that God’s sovereignty does not in anyway mitigate man’s responsibility. God’s sovereignty, and man’s responsibility is clearly shown in Lk 22:22:

Luke 22:22
*22 “For indeed, the Son of Man is going *[to be crucified] *as it has been determined [by God]; but woe to that man *[Judas Iscariot] *by whom He *[The Christ] is betrayed!”

In the scenario that you present, God is made to know by observation; that reduces God from the absolute sovereign to the incidental contingent. IOW, all of His plans and purposes hinge upon the creation, and what the creature will do. That is not how God has revealed Himself.


#38

[quote=cynic]How can God create a soul knowing what they will do without first intending them to do this? If he creates a soul and then finds out what will will happen to it in the process - as he makes it - then he has learnt something new. He must create the soul with intention, and their desintiny (predestiny) must be his intention. So in essence God must have created some to go to heaven, some hell, some to be open to grace, other not to be.
[/quote]

Yes, God is a God of purpose, and intention. Read my above post to USMC.

[quote=cynic]…it does however contradict a bit with sandusky’s post on another thread…
[/quote]

[quote=Sandusky]God commands repentance, desires repentance, but He has not created man unable to do so. God created man upright, and in a state of righteousness, and holiness. All, men, however, fell in the garden, with Adam. Man is unable to repent because of his own actions, not God’s, and if it were not for God choosing to save some, none would be saved.
[/quote]

Yes, I see why you would come to that conclusion. I was hasty in my keying of that response. Go to the second sentence, and read from there.

Empirically, men have concluded that the reason people will not believe and repent is that in the exercise of their will, they choose not to. Theologies have been constructed around that idea. However, Scripture takes the not choosing one step further, and says that man, in his unregenerate state, cannot choose. That is the thought behind “total depravity,” better rendered, I think, “total inability.” It is an ability on the part of man to choose what is “right,” right being, repenting of his sin and believing as God has commanded.

Romans 8:6-8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Repenting and believing would be pleasing to God, but those in the flesh cannot please God (cf Rom 7:5; Jas 4:4).

In Jn 6:44, Jesus says “no one can come to me unless…”

Both of those verses speak to inability: in the flesh no one is able to please God; in the flesh, no one is able to come to Christ and believe.

[quote=cynic]In this scenario - the quote above - God chooses who he will give grace to, like a lottery.
[/quote]

No, it is not like a lottery. God’s choices and decisions are not arbitrary, but purposed.

[quote=cynic]Rather than creating some people spiritual (open to grace) and others not so.
[/quote]

What is the difference? I’ll tell you. Creating some “open to grace” merely points out your desire to be in control of the situation and make the final choice all by yourself; but you are still not in control in your scenario, because, as you state, you must be "made open to grace.” That is a contingent situation, God does not saves those He has chosen by making them “open to grace,” but by declaring that they will believe, and they do so of their own will.

[quote=cynic] Which is it, are some creaetd with grace in mind, being able to receive things spiritually, or are we all as bad as one another, with God choosing who will recieve grace by a means unknown?
[/quote]

The latter.


#39

We have to remember that God loves all that he created (angels and humans) whether we love Him back in return. So those who have separated themselves from God will still be loved by God. It will happen that those who reject God will never experience God’s love for all eternity. That would be Hell for the eternal soul that was created for God, but is now forever lost to His love.

Also, God knows what we will do in the future, but we do not know what our decisions will be. So we must always make the right decision to love God and our neighbor. It is not about us, but for the other (God and neighbor). We sometimes place our limited understanding of love on what the Love of God is like. It is unlimited and forever, truly unconditional. We still, even with all our efforts to live in grace, will, at times, place conditions on our love, for we are limited.

Just some thoughts.


#40

You are philosophizing. A simple reality check will show you that it is just plain foolishness to assert that non-Christians have a “total inability" to do what is right. Obviously, not EVERY non-Christian is a murdering, child molesting Satan worshipper. This is one of the main problems I have with Calvinism - it demands blind acceptance of irrational philosophical ideas that contradict the ordinary reality that sane people must dwell in.


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