If honoring Mary, why not them!


#1

I explained to my non-Catholic brothers and sisters that Mary NOW makes sense. Someone told me treat it like if you were married, you would want to get to know and love your fiancee’s mother, etc. etc. and told them that makes sense,etc. then one person just HAD to drop us dead so to speak by saying:

If we should honor Mary as Jesus’ Mother, why don’t we do the same for Peter, Paul, etc. mother? I hope you see how ludicrus the thought is. Mary is nothing more than a sinner saved by His blood.

** And as The Queen of Heaven, you should read about that one. IMO, it does not honor Jesus’ mother by calling her the Queen of Heaven. **


**I can know beyond a shadow of doubt that I’m saved. Just read the scriptures and you will know also. One does not need ANY denomination, RCC or AoG, Baptish, etc. to tell/say whether one is saved. From scripture one can know 100% whether they are. **


Oh boy, anything you say to a non-Catholic person, they’ll come back with to drive you insane with!:banghead: :banghead:


#2

Me here! I really think that you should not discuss things with these anti-Catholics until you are more grounded in your faith - if you were in the early years of med school, would you be out trying to teach others how to do heart surgery? Your intent is noble, but, wait to do battle until you get out of boot camp :slight_smile: (Sorry to mix my metaphors).

Pray, read the Bible and the CCC, go to Mass, go to RCIA - surround yourself with faithful CATHOLICS. Get good apologetics training and then go apologize.


#3

Hey there!

I’ve already, on another thread, suggested that you stop conversing with these people, either in person or by email until you are more familiar with your faith.

I can see how it’s tempting. I have a protestant husband who throws all the same arguments at me! My decision has been this:
Nothing I am going to say is going to change his mind. He always has an answer, just like your friends. So, as someone else told me, “Do not throw your pearls before swine!” Although, it does, to some degree, bolster your faith by having to learn your faith to refute the lies and misconceptions!

Still, stop messing with these people until you are stronger in your faith and know what you are talking about. Do your own studying on the things they are throwing before you for your own benefit - not theirs!


#4

[quote=DianJo]Hey there!

I’ve already, on another thread, suggested that you stop conversing with these people, either in person or by email until you are more familiar with your faith.

I can see how it’s tempting. I have a protestant husband who throws all the same arguments at me! My decision has been this:
Nothing I am going to say is going to change his mind. He always has an answer, just like your friends. So, as someone else told me, “Do not throw your pearls before swine!” Although, it does, to some degree, bolster your faith by having to learn your faith to refute the lies and misconceptions!

Still, stop messing with these people until you are stronger in your faith and know what you are talking about. Do your own studying on the things they are throwing before you for your own benefit - not theirs!
[/quote]

Yes, I am trying to study the Mary devotion and even gotten the book “Christ’s Mother and Ours” by that one Catholic HOme Study website and all and was telling them too but there IS one thing that catches my attention and since I have no answer for it, how do I respond with:

**And did they tell you their point in wanting to introduce you to someone who’s already physically dead? Why do they want you to communicate with a dead saint? **

Nicole, It’s not Jesus – not the biblical Jesus anyway – that is pointing you to his human mother, it’s other people who apparently don’t have their complete focus where the biblical Jesus tells us to ‘look’. The real Jesus always did and still does direct a believer’s heart/attention to the Father!

[font=Comic Sans MS]Now I’m dead in my tracks and can’t answer that question. And since the studying I’ve done so far doesn’t point this out, what can I say in the future to them when my faith grows?

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#5

Were Peter and Paul conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of Virgins?

Paris: get OUTTA those places and stop having these conversations. You need to build your understanding in peace. Later you can join us on the front lines . . . You’re going to be awesome.


#6

If we should honor Mary as Jesus’ Mother, why don’t we do the same for Peter, Paul, etc. mother? I hope you see how ludicrus the thought is. Mary is nothing more than a sinner saved by His blood.

But Peter, Paul, nor anyone else’s mother conceived and gave birth to the Son of God. Duh!

And as The Queen of Heaven, you should read about that one. IMO, it does not honor Jesus’ mother by calling her the Queen of Heaven.

And how does it not honor Mary to call her, who is the mother of the King of Heaven the Queen of Heaven? If they are referring to a goddess that was called “Queen of Heaven” that is a smoke screen. Other kings in ancient times were called “King of Kings” but that doesn’t mean that they actually were worthy of that title nor that they were the “King of Kings”. Guilt by name association is a non sequitur.

I can know beyond a shadow of doubt that I’m saved. Just read the scriptures and you will know also. One does not need ANY denomination, RCC or AoG, Baptish, etc. to tell/say whether one is saved. From scripture one can know 100% whether they are.

I’m afraid this is just wishful thinking as well as reading into the Bible what is does not say.

And did they tell you their point in wanting to introduce you to someone who’s already physically dead? Why do they want you to communicate with a dead saint?

Jesus differs with this opinion. He said that the dead are not dead but are alive. The Church teaches this in the Communion of Saints. So, we are not communicating with the dead, but asking for the intercession of those who are alive with Christ in heaven.

Nicole, It’s not Jesus – not the biblical Jesus anyway – that is pointing you to his human mother, it’s other people who apparently don’t have their complete focus where the biblical Jesus tells us to ‘look’. The real Jesus always did and still does direct a believer’s heart/attention to the Father!

This is simply not true. As Jesus directs our hearts to the Father Mary always has and always will direct out hearts to her Son.

I too think you are not ready to answer these people. You need to understand these things correctly yourself before you try to help non-Catholics understand them. I didn’t say a word of apologetics for years after becoming Catholic. Not until I had taken Catholic teaching into my heart and mind and made it my own.


#7

[quote=Paris Blues]Yes, I am trying to study the Mary devotion and even gotten the book “Christ’s Mother and Ours” by that one Catholic HOme Study website and all and was telling them too but there IS one thing that catches my attention and since I have no answer for it, how do I respond with:

**And did they tell you their point in wanting to introduce you to someone who’s already physically dead? Why do they want you to communicate with a dead saint? **

Nicole, It’s not Jesus – not the biblical Jesus anyway – that is pointing you to his human mother, it’s other people who apparently don’t have their complete focus where the biblical Jesus tells us to ‘look’. The real Jesus always did and still does direct a believer’s heart/attention to the Father!

[font=Comic Sans MS]Now I’m dead in my tracks and can’t answer that question. And since the studying I’ve done so far doesn’t point this out, what can I say in the future to them when my faith grows?
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I agree with everyone here who says you need to be better grounded in your faith before taking on anti-Catholic heavyweights. However, here is the answer:

We point to Mary because Mary points to Christ. Through her supreme devotion to the will of God, manifest most clearly in her fiat, Mary holds a singular place in all of Christian history. We hold her up as the example of human faith and humility par excellence.

In addition, we have no interest in introducing anyone to dead saints. But Mary and all those with her in Heaven are not dead–indeed, they are more alive than you or me!!


#8

The short answer is this: Peter and Paul etc. aren’t called “blessed”, their souls do not “magnify” the Lord and they are not the Ark of the Covenant. Revelations.

God didn’t NEED to do these things BUT it is undeniable that he did. They should deal with and acknowledge this reality.


#9

First of all, let’s all say it together “The saints are not dead!” The Bible clearly tells us that for a Christian to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, the saints are MORE alive than you and I.

Why did God allow the verse stating (about Mary) that “all generations will call me blessed” to even BE in the Bible? Well, because He wanted all generations to call Mary blessed, maybe??? Because she was chosen above ALL other women, and she said yes and agreed, not only to the scorn that she would receive from the society – but from the scorn she would receive throughout all time from those who claim to love her Son. Yet there was the prophecy that all generations will call her blessed. To answer the earlier question why we don’t call Peter’s mother blessed, well, the Bible tells us that Mary was chosen for a special honor – to give birth to Jesus. While we honor all of the Saints (and if Peter’s mother is a saint in heaven, may she pray for all of us), the same Bible they read gives Mary special honor.

I wear a T-shirt that says “Don’t mess with my mom, her Son is your God” – I had a woman in a store become irate with that shirt just this past Saturday. If one of my son’s friends constantly ran me down, told my son that I was not special and did not deserve honor – do you think my son would consider that person a friend for long?

And lastly, Mary ALWAYS points the way to Jesus – she never detracts from Him. If a great singer gave his best performance, and the crowd was cheering and clapping for him – they are giving him praise. Was he to give a nod to his mother as she sat in the front row, would you see that as the mother detracting from the praise being given to the son – hardly, in fact, she would be standing there leading the ovation, beaming from ear to ear. If someone were to stop her on the way out of the concert hall and say “Your son is the greatest singer of all time!” would the mother be gathering the praise to herself or merely be a method for reflecting that praise on to her beloved son.

Enough from me for now, I still advise you to let these friends see them joy and happiness in your life, let the feel the love of Jesus from you – refuse to debate them. Just smile and pray. They will know we are Christians by our love, not our debating skills :slight_smile:


#10

[quote=Paris Blues], why don’t we do the same for Peter, Paul, etc. mother?
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We don’t even know who Peter and Pauls mothers are!


#11

Paris_Blues,

Hello!! I must agree with the others here who said to pray that you are better grounded in your faith & pray for those with whom you are trying to share this good news. I have been & still am in your shoes as are others here. We TRY to tell Protestants about things, hoping to let them see what they are missing, and, at the very least, clear up any misconceptions, they wont listen because they are not READY TO listen. For whatever reason, they just CANNOT accept these things because they have been so taught against it all. I tried to show the doctrine of Purgatory to an internet friend & gave him an online article & he disagreed with something St. Augustine said. :rolleyes: I saw nothing wrong with that quote. We debated over the “paid the last penny” thing…we couldn’t believe we were both reading the same passage & not getting it. He accused me of taking a verse out of context, on his blog, he said that Catholics claim to find scriptural evidence for indulgences & when I pointed out what an indulgence IS, he said, “Wow. You Catholics must not thing that highly of Jesus.” I also asked about Genesis 1 & 2, he said they didn’t need to be reconciled because even though Gen 1, Day 3 said that all vegitation was called to be brought forth, he claimed that God could have still made man on the sixth day & no shrubbery was onland (as it states in Gen 2) because just because it was CALLED to be brought forth, doesn’t mean that it WAS that day…even though, it says it was. My dad, when asked the same question told me that Man was created the fifth day & woman on the sixth…even thought tha’s NOT what it says in the Bible (he later told me that he’d have to check it out again). The point I’m trying to make, is that they don’t WANT to hear what you have to say…they are not yet spiritually ready FOR it. My advice is be the best Catholic you can be. Focus on the love of Jesus & such rather than being “Hey guys, you GOTTA check this out!!!” When they have questions, IF they really want to know & not just get into it with you & make you try to lose faith, they will ask, inquire of themselves. AND, I know this is hard, because, even when you DO talk to things of this nature to them, eventually, you all wont be on the same page and language will have to be defined – wait until you are better versed for this. HOWEVER, do not compromise on points. Teach the truth when they are able to hear it. DO NOT let them make you leave your faith!!! Remeber, the Bible was because of the Church, not the other way around. You now have a history upon which you can rely for information. Go back & see how the early Church did things. READ about these things. There are plenty good books. If you’d like, I’ll recomend some. Pray for your friends. That they may understand. This is possibly a lesson in humility. We’ve all been there, even some of the saints. As easy as it is to romanticise the situation, we’re not always right, they are not always…well, they aren’t always COMPLETELY wrong, AND, if God is working through them to teach you that you need to be better prepared (and, I know, you may think you are), then, listen. Things will happen naturally. I must say, though, be a fig tree. Let them see your fruits.

OH! And anthother thing!!! DON’T EVER LET THEM TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE!!!


#12

Those men had a different purpose, and a different role. We do honor them as Saints. However Mary is different than them because she bore Christ in her womb. She said yes to God and was immaculatly conceived.

As for ‘talking to dead people’ Do protestants really beleive that we don’t live on eternally in the kingdom of Heaven?


#13

Well, they don’t quite exactly say that but they do say somethng like, “don’t listen to what other people tell/say to you. Follow God’s Word”, something like that.


#14

[quote=Paris Blues]… they do say somethng like, “don’t listen to what other people tell/say to you. Follow God’s Word”, something like that.
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The answer is “Good, I am following the Bible where it says regarding Mary that all generations will call her blessed!”


#15

Peter and Paul’s moms were not not the Mom of God like Mary is. They were not immaculately conceived. They did not lead sinless lives. They were not assumed. Heck, for all we know, they might not have even been Christians. Ask them why they don’t treat Peter and Paul like they treat Jesus. That question seems just as sensible as theirs.


#16

[quote=Paris Blues]Well, they don’t quite exactly say that but they do say somethng like, “don’t listen to what other people tell/say to you. Follow God’s Word”, something like that.
[/quote]

Tell them you are and they need to stop listening to their pastor and follow the Gospel that has been preached for 2000 years, not the one that the Rev. Joe Schmo came up with by himself.


#17

Ooh… Paris
I wish I was in your shoes right now, I am sure other people on this forum would love to sit next to you and help out but alas we are stuck to trying to help you over the forums…

Once you can defend the faith and start asking some questions of your own, I have found many people just clam up and do not want to discuss it. I have several people around me like that right now, but you need to plant the seeds and be an example.

I know many people urge you not to talk to them, for good reason too, as many people’s arguements can confuse and cause doubts. This actually led me to the Church as the many different opinions and extreme distaste of the Catholic Church led me to discover it for myself. Now I feel I am completely grounded in the Catholic Church, happy to be home.


#18

Interesting thread…
I will point you to a powerful Scripture Passage on this one, as well as the words of the late, great, St (?) John Paul II:

Jn 19:26-27

"When Jesus saw his mother 11 and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home."
Link to papal document from Pope John Paul II (regarding Mary):

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm49.htm

Requiescat in Pace:gopray2:

[left]-Stephen[/left]


#19

[quote=Ignatius]We don’t even know who Peter and Pauls mothers are!
[/quote]

That’s what I was thinking as well. In the first place, there’s no mention who their parents were, so how can the Church even honour someone who’s not known?


#20

Not to mention the fact that, even if we did know who their mothers were, the children they bore were not the Son of God!

God Bless


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