If i die before confessing


#41

Of course we presume one knows. Why are you bringing up Old Testament people and Protestants? We are talking about Catholics and the obligations of Catholics. Do not bring those people in; their souls are between them and God.

Further, no one is claiming that God is limited by the Confessional, but he HAS bound mercy TO the Confessional, and the obligation to it as well. Perfect contrition forgives ONLY WITH THE INTENT TO CONFESS AT THE SOONEST OPPORTUNITY. So even then, the Confessional is NOT optional. If such a person does before making it to the Confessional, he is saved. But if he had the opportunity and did refused to take it, then his soul is in danger because he has not followed what God has ordained.

You’re the one who seems to see legalism where there is none. You’re the one who seems to think Confession makes things “harder” when in fact, it makes things much, much easier, because a person who is absolved KNOWS he is forgiven.


#43

So confession, then, is not strictly necessary to forgive mortal sins, if that individual has perfect contrition. King David is proof enough.

What is strictly necessary to forgive mortal sins is perfect contrition — without the sacrament, and the sacrament itself makes up for the lack of perfect contrition.

We are normally required to go to Confession when we have mortal sins, whether or not we have perfect contrition (because we do not know if we have perfect contrition, for starters).

Because, yes, Confession is “normative” and the “ordinary means” when we understand that God established Confession as a sacrament.

As for all other sins, venial sins, which are MORE common, yes — Confession is good. But it’s not necessary. Hence what I said about private prayer, liturgical prayer, acts of charity, and the Eucharist.

The PROFOUND sense of bitterness in this dialogue is highly scandalous. It’s ironic it’s on the very subject of Confession and sin. :thinking:

Anyone who wants to know Catholic teaching, which I HAVE NOT contradicted or rejected, can look up Confession, perfect contrition, God’s mercy, and sin in the Catechism.

ALL I am saying is that we need to be careful in approaching Confession in a legalistic mindset. Goodness.

People on CAF just love jumping at every little thing, don’t they! :thinking:

@Juanita Yes you were forgiven. God loves you. Do not approach Confession legalistically. He did not establish Confession to make things harder on our lives, but to help us. Jesus is always waiting, inside the confessional, but outside too: Don’t delay to ask God for forgiveness at the moment of your sinning — don’t just wait for Confession. But if you are conscious of mortal sin, then try to muster up, by God’s grace, a act of perfect contrition and get to Confession as soon as you can. Until then, trust in God’s mercy, for God is not out to get you.

God bless!


#44

I don’t care what platitudes you use. You have contradicted Church teaching and you are wrong on so many points. And @Juanita would do well to ignore your advice because is VERY dangerous.

You are SO wrong when you say perfect contrition is STRICTLY necessary to forgive mortal sins. SO WRONG. Imperfect contrition is sufficient to approach the Sacrament of Confession worthily. If one confesses mortal sins with merely imperfect contrition, that person is both forgiven and absolved. Perfect contrition again, ONLY FORGIVES MORTAL SIN WHEN ACCOMPANIED BY THE INTENT TO CONFESS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

This discussion is not about venial sin. It is about mortal sin and how CONFESSION IS NECESSARY for the forgiveness of mortal sin, such that the intent to confess must be there.

We have cited to Catechism to your face to show you where YOU are so wrong, and I will resist you until I am green in the face so that people do not take your dangerous opinions and think it’s fine to not approach Confession when they have a mortal sin on their soul. I don’t care what “sense of bitterness” you feel or how “scandalous” you think this is.You are wrong, I will ensure other people do not follow you down that path.


#45

Hmm, no, King David died under the Old Covenant, and is in no way whatsoever proof that confession is somehow not necessary for modern Catholics. How that is not clear to you is beyond me.

For the fifth time,

so you’re wrong on that point.

You’re the one subverting Catholic teaching, with ‘catholic’ in your name. Now that’s what I’d call irony.

No, all you’re doing is undermining the Church, which is a sin in itself.

I know, that tiny irrelevance of undermining the Church.


#46

Then you misunderstand me.

Perfect Contrition moves us from a state of no grace to a state of sanctifying grace, as it is an act of Charity. This is strictly necessary outside of the sacrament. This is what is necessary for the Protestant, or what was necessary for King David. Or what is necessary for the Catholic who cannot approach Confession in time.

I don’t mean perfect contrition is required for Confession. Imperfect contrition will do.

And I also don’t mean that Confession is not normative, for that is Catholic teaching, and I accept Catholic teaching.

Again, call back the Inquisition :wink:


#47

@camoderator Have I contradicted Catholic teaching anywhere?


#48

Hmm, no, King David died under the Old Covenant, and is in no way whatsoever proof that confession is somehow not necessary for modern Catholics. How that is not clear to you is beyond me.

WOW. Major strawman there. I never said Confession is not necessary for Catholics?


#49

ONLY IF ACCOMPANIED BY THE INTENT TO CONFESS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!

Oh please, don’t play the inquisition card. We would probably do well to have it back in any case.

That is not what you said. You are now backpedaling into a more orthodox line, which is good, but that is not what you said earlier. You were flat-out denying that Confession was less than necessary and that it was “legalistic” to think so.


#50

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

IF IT INCLUDES THE FIRM RESOLUTION TO HAVE RECOURSE TO SACRAMENTAL CONFESSION AS SOON AS POSSIBLE

How many more times must I quote the Catechism at you before you accept Church teaching. It’s there, blatantly, black on white. Perfect contrition by itself if NOT ENOUGH. Not for the protestant, not for the Catholic, not for anyone, unless by a miracle, or invincible ignorance.


#51

Is this the same sin committed over and over again?

From the CCC (emphasis mine)
1457 According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.” Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession. Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.

IOW, the Church is saying don’t rely on one’s own contrition. Reason being, perfect contrition isn’t presumed, and imperfect contrition isn’t enough.

That point is mentioned in 1 John 5:16

"There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that"

as in pray for forgiveness of mortal sin is not the recommendation, when the sacrament and absolution is available…

Different story. You did the best you could remembering sins for your last confession. If you remember a mortal sin not confessed, go to confession with the intent of confessing it. Should you die before that happens God honors your intent to confess it in confession.


#52

You pretty much said we could remit mortal sin through other means without intent to receive absolution. So yes, you’ve negated the whole point of the sacrament.


#53

This whole ruckus started with my initial reply in this forum here:

I think we’ve gotten too legalistic in our understanding. Confession is God’s way of giving us an objective sign of our forgiveness, as the priest is Christ’s ambassador, so-to-speak. Sometimes, though, Catholics present Confession as the only or even normative way that God forgives us. To say this largely misunderstands Christian history.

Yes, Confession is a sacrament, but it developed over time, and was utilized differently in the earliest centuries. I appreciate the Eastern Christian approach more, which acknowledges Confession as a sacrament, and yet also encourages recourse to God through our own one-on-one prayer with Him. The tendency to become legalistic, I think, is due to our Western obsession with defining things: “Is this a mortal sin?!?!” and so on.

And so I will attempt to clarify. If there are still arguments after I clarify what I meant in this post, then I’m afraid we will have to admit that we have different understandings of Catholic doctrine. But hopefully that won’t be the case, and this will clear it up:

  1. I think we’ve gotten too legalistic in our understanding: THIS was the framework for my post. I was not attempting strict doctrine, since I assume Catholic doctrine already. I’m merely offering that we stay away from legalistic notions of God’s mercy and confession, which can be REALLY harmful to how people approach confession, including me. (When I was in my teens, I thought I was going to hell for every little “mortal sin,” which were not actually mortal sins, etc.).

  2. Sometimes, though, Catholics present Confession as the only or even normative way that God forgives us. I’m sorry if you interpreted “normative” here in the technical sense that Catholic theology uses it. ALL that I meant is that some Catholics suggest Confession is the only way we approach God’s mercy. When in reality, private prayer, liturgy, Eucharist, etc. should always be other accessed as occasions of God’s mercy.

  3. I appreciate the Eastern Christian approach more, which acknowledges Confession as a sacrament, and yet also encourages recourse to God through our own one-on-one prayer with Him. Like Eastern Christians, I don’t reject Confession. Obviously. I’m merely saying that our Western legalism could use a dose of how other Catholic traditions approach Confession.


#54

That is not what you said. You are now backpedaling into a more orthodox line

Hardly “backpedaling.” How about you give me the benefit of the doubt? I’ve said over and over that I accept Catholic doctrine, so surprise! I am orthodox on Confession. Sorry if you misunderstood me at first, but I still think this whole conversation is a bad example of good dialogue. Assuming the worst, bad motives, etc…


#55

Alright, then revoke your statement that, contrary to the clear words of the Catechism, perfect contrition without the intent to go to confession as soon as possible is sufficient for forgiveness of mortal sin.


#56

Alright, then revoke your statement that, contrary to the clear words of the Catechism, perfect contrition without the intent to go to confession as soon as possible is sufficient for forgiveness of mortal sin.

Excuse me? I never said that “perfect contrition without the intent to go to confession as soon as possible is sufficient for forgiveness of mortal sin.”


#57

You said that

which is blatantly false.

You said that

which is blatantly false.

You said that

which is blatantly false.

Which is an outrageous concoction, and blatantly false.

All the while we were reminding you of what the Catechism actually says.

Need I go on?


#58

Please discuss but respect each other.


#59

I did not misunderstand you. You were saying the wrong things. This discussion is about mortal sin and Confession. Venial sins were not even under consideration here. And you said:

“Sometimes, though, Catholics present Confession as the only or even normative way that God forgives us.” And then you try to cover yourself by saying WE misunderstood you? When in fact, for mortal sin (which this discussion was all about), Confession IS the normative way?

This is not about “perceived” mortal sins or scrupulosity or mistaken consciences. There has been nothing in this thread than to assume “mortal sin” actually meant real mortal sin. The kind of sin that WILL send you to hell. There is nothing legalistic about obeying God’s command to CONFESS ALL YOUR MORTAL SINS! So, yes we say it’s normative because it IS normative! All that other stuff, such as prayer, Eucharist, etc. are fine only for venial sins. But guess what? This thread was NOTHING about venial sin. Mortal sin only!

You can claim over and over again that you accept Catholic doctrine, but your writing contradicted all that. What you said is right there in all its glory for all of us to read.


#60

You mean:

If I die and accidentally did not mention a specific mortal sin during my life confessions, is that mortal sin forgiven?

The Catechism states:
-If you forgot to confess a sin by accident -one still receives absolution, but must mention it at the next confession if you remember the unconfessed mortal sin.
-If you deliberately hid a mortal sin in confession, that is the mortal sin of sacrelige which also means that particular confession is render null and no sin in that particular confession was forgiven.

If you died and had a mortal sin you had genuinely forgotten to confess, yes you can reach Heaven, provided you were living in a state of grace at death, according to the Catholic Magisterium.

If you remembered an accidentally unconfessed mortal at your deathbed and no priest was available,
you could make an act of perfect contrition.
And at one’s dying moments: reciting the Name Jesus gains a plenary indulgence,

A lot of posters here might reply with their ‘opinion’ but what all laypeople and priests are bound in obedience to; is the Catholic catechism which Saint Pope John Paul II stated of: ‘I put my Apostolic Authority on this work.’


#62

Unfortunately, now I think you are misunderstanding Catholic doctrine. Perfect contrition moves ones into a state of grace, since it is an act of Charity motivated by God’s grace. Perfect contrition assumes desire/intent for Confession.

Regarding that contrition which has for its motive the love of God, the Council of Trent declares: "The Council further teaches that, though contrition may sometimes be made perfect by charity and may reconcile men to God before the actual reception of this sacrament, still the reconciliation is not to be ascribed to the contrition apart from the desire for the sacrament which it includes."

Nor is this strange, for in the Old Covenant there was some way of recovering God’s grace once man had sinned. God wills not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live (Ezekiel 33:11). This total turning to God corresponds to our idea of perfect contrition; and if under the Old Law love sufficed for the pardon of the sinner, surely the coming of Christ and the institution of the Sacrament of Penance cannot be supposed to have increased the difficulty of obtaining forgiveness.

That the earlier Fathers taught the efficacy of sorrow for the remission of sins is very clear (Clement in P.G., I, 341 sqq.; and Hermas in P.G., II, 894 sqq.; Chrysostom in P.G., XLIX, 285 sqq.) and this is particularly noticeable in all the commentaries on Luke 7:47. The Venerable Bede writes (P.L., XCII, 425): “What is love but fire; what is sin but rust? Hence it is said, many sins are forgiven her because she has loved much, as though to say, she hath burned away entirely the rust of sin, because she is inflamed with the fire of love.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04337a.htm

But this is getting too long. And ridiculous. Maybe it would be good if we all take a break…

@camoderator again if I had led anyone astray in my descriptions of Confession, feel free to tell me.


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