If i die before confessing


#86

That’s fine. It’s just that the utter rejection of fallen human nature it requires, for the sake of higher aims, sounds very uncommon, at least to me (and the aforementioned priests.)


#87

What do Jews have to do with this? They are not bound to the Sacraments, and we have the Church’s teachings as they are formulated today. And stop throwing out the “legalistic” card; that’s becoming really tiresome.

The Catechism is clear: do we have to throw this out again?

PERFECT CONTRITION REQUIRES US TO INTEND TO CONFESS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Why the Jews or early Christians so important to you I don’t know. But we have clear, unmistakable teaching which right here, right now, YOU ARE DENYING AGAIN! This is not about Jews, and not about the early practice. This is about what the Church teaches us HERE and NOW!

It’s RIGHT THERE in the Catechism! And here, and let me boldface it, so that your denial can be clearly seen:

The Catechism

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

It’s RIGHT THERE! And again, here is what YOU said:

That’s why it’s odd to speak of “intent to go to Confession” as part of Perfect Contrition’s requirement if you mean an explicit intent on the explicit ritual, for the Jews didn’t have this, nor did the earliest Christians – in which the sacrament was formally very different).

I don’t care about the Jews. They were under the Old Covenant where Sacraments did not exist! They killed bulls to get their sins forgiven for crying out loud! And I don’t even care what you mean by “explicit ritual.” The Church is clear: sacramental Confession.

So enough with crying “legalistic”. It’s not legalistic if one is obedient, and the converse is also true. So again, despite your protestations, you are UNDERMINING Catholic teaching, and at worst, you are DENYING it.

And also, I’m not concerned about “perfect contrition is rare.” I in fact believe that is NOT rare, and it IS possible to attain perfect contrition fairly easily. I will NOT, however, deny that the intent to confess ASAP is still a requirement, and all mortal sins need to be confessed. You cannot get away with mere perfect contrition when the Sacrament is available to you.


#88

My post started with the “legalistic card” (as you say), so it makes perfect sense to express my thoughts in that greater context.

I come to this discussion with acceptance of Catholic doctrine. But my reply was to nuance how we approach Confession by being weary of legalism and such, which can be unhelpful and even destructive. Bringing in Jews and Protestants serve my point that forgiveness is not wholly equivalent to Confession.

And why would I bring that up? Precisely, again, to express that we need not be legalistic in how we approach God and his mercy.


#89

Honestly, as an Eastern Catholic, reading this stuff gives me a headache.

Live out a life of prayer and repentance. Love the Lord God with your whole heart, whole mind, and whole soul. Love your neighbor as yourself. (The Church tells us how to do this.) When you recognize that you have failed to do so, approach the Divine Physician for healing, through the Holy Mysteries that he has given us. Resume your life of prayer and repentance.

If this is how we approach a life of faith, I believe that God’s abundant mercy will bring us to salvation.


#90

Exactly. Confession is part of an overall holy life.

We shouldn’t look at Confession as a random and arbitrary ritual that is disconnected from the greater context of God’s mercy.


#91

So God won’t forgive mortal sins if we don’t go to Confession ?

Confession doesn’t exclude God’s forgiveness and mercy, but brings it as a real experience for the soul in this life.

Jim


#92

No Jim, as previously stated, God will not forgive mortal sins, barring a miracle, unless we go to confession or have perfect contrition with an intent to do so ASAP. Souls which have sinned mortally are dead to him.

1484 ‘Individual, integral confession and absolution remain the only ordinary way for the faithful to reconcile themselves with God and the Church, unless physical or moral impossibility excuses from this kind of confession.’

1452 ‘When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called ‘perfect’ (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Emphases mine


#93

I think the “he” is a “she”. Not that it really matters.

To the OP, haven’t read all the responses, but those saying that a sin, not confessed because one simply forgot is absolved and absolution cannot be retroactively “cancelled” are correct. One thing to consider though is your internal understanding and determination to avoid the sin in the future. If your “mortal” sin is something to which you cling, with little actual determination to cease that behavior, you are sliding down a slippery slope. Confession and absolution requires a resolve. The old act of contrition contains the words “I firmly resolve, with the help of thy grace…” Sometimes I think the resolve not to continue in sin is even more important than remembering every sin or how many times. etc.
Peace.


#94

Because God is totally bound by “ordinary” ways and Church rulebooks

Yep


#96

I have repeated the phrase ‘barring a miracle’ at least ten times on this thread alone.

Of course he isn’t.


#97

I’m not sure what you mean by miracle, exactly. Ordinarily, I think of a miracle as something that defies the laws of nature. Clearly, you mean it in a much broader sense, but I’m not sure that I would use the word “miracle” to describe God’s mercy, except in the sense that it can be used for everything, even the sacraments that he has given us.

Even the Catechism gives an exception to God’s ordinary means, in the case of physical or moral impossibility. This opens a broad range of possibilities that no human can possibly define.

God has given us ordinary means and a clear path to salvation. Yet, we have an extraordinary God, who himself is not bound to those rules. You seem to freely state that God will not or cannot do something. I don’t feel so comfortable speaking for God.


#98

I’m referring to it the way St. Anselm did, on occasion (if memory serves) as an miraculous, exceptional dispensation provided by God from damnation for one who has died in mortal sin. Here we are! From his sermon ‘on impenitence:’

‘″But who knows,” the obstinate sinner will say, “but God will show me the same mercy which he has shown to certain great sinners?” In answer to this, St. Chrysostom says: “Fortasse dabit, inquis: cur dicis fortasse? Con- tigit aliquando; sed cogita quod de anima deliberas?” (Hom. xxii. in 2 Cor.) You say: ”Perhaps God will give me the grace of salvation. But why do you say perhaps? Is it because he has sometimes given to great sinners the grace of eternal life? But remember, says the holy doctor, that there is question of your soul, which, if once lost, is lost for ever. I, too, take you up, and admit that God has, by certain extraordinary graces, saved some enormous sinners.

But these cases are very rare; they are prodigies and miracles of grace, by which God wished to show the boundlessness of his mercy. But, ordinarily, sinners who wish to continue in sin, are, in the end, cast into hell. On them are executed the threats of the Lord against obstinate sinners. ”You have despised my counsels, and neglected my reprehensions. I also will laugh in your destruction. . . . Then they will call on me, and I will not hear.” (Prov. i. 25, 26, 28.) I, says the Lord, have called on them again and again, but they have refused to hear me. ”But they did not hear nor incline their ears; but hardened their neck, that they might not hear me.” (Jer. xvii. 23.)’


#99

Or rather, the Church guards what God has revealed. God has ordained that forgiveness is dispensed in a certain ordinary way, and certain extraordinary ways, and the Church, faithful to her mandate as Magister, protects that revelation. The Church teaches it and draws its laws accordingly because first and foremost, God has revealed it. Confession is ordinary because that is the way God himself dictated it should be.

So in a way, yes, God is bound to ritual and rulebook, because first of all, he has bound himself to it. That’s part of the Church’s charism of binding and loosing. Or, put another way, God has bound salvation to the Sacraments, but is himself not bound (i.e. limited) by the Sacraments.

What I will not accept is someone presuming to speak against what the Church proposes for belief, and despite his protestations, that is what poster catholic1seeks is doing.


#100

Only God forgives sin

1441 Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: “Your sins are forgiven.” Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.

The power given to the Apostles and handed down through succession, does not exclude God from forgiving sin.

Confession provides the experience of God’s mercy through grace, while we’re here on earth.

We need to seek God’s love and mercy at all times.

Jim


#101

I don’t see the point of contention here. God can, in incredibly rare cases, forgive mortal sins at death. Are you saying you agree with me? Once again, St. Anselm:

‘″But who knows,” the obstinate sinner will say, “but God will show me the same mercy which he has shown to certain great sinners?” In answer to this, St. Chrysostom says: “Fortasse dabit, inquis: cur dicis fortasse? Con- tigit aliquando; sed cogita quod de anima deliberas?” (Hom. xxii. in 2 Cor.) You say: ”Perhaps God will give me the grace of salvation. But why do you say perhaps? Is it because he has sometimes given to great sinners the grace of eternal life? But remember, says the holy doctor, that there is question of your soul, which, if once lost, is lost for ever. I, too, take you up, and admit that God has, by certain extraordinary graces, saved some enormous sinners.

But these cases are very rare; they are prodigies and miracles of grace , by which God wished to show the boundlessness of his mercy. But, ordinarily, sinners who wish to continue in sin, are, in the end, cast into hell. On them are executed the threats of the Lord against obstinate sinners. ”You have despised my counsels, and neglected my reprehensions. I also will laugh in your destruction. . . . Then they will call on me, and I will not hear.” (Prov. i. 25, 26, 28.) I, says the Lord, have called on them again and again, but they have refused to hear me. ”But they did not hear nor incline their ears; but hardened their neck, that they might not hear me.” (Jer. xvii. 23.)’


#102

How do you know it is “incredibly rare”? I don’t think God has provided us any data sets on percentage of mortal sins God has chosen to mercifully forgive upon death.


#103

I once again give St. Anselm, with ample scriptural evidence:


#104

Saints are not infallible.

Besides, St. Anselm lived a long time ago. Maybe it was rare then and not rare now for all we know.

Certainly in the 20th century, St. Therese and St. Faustina among others brought us to a much deeper and greater appreciation of God’s divine mercy.

Now that doesn’t mean we just go disregard the Church catechism and say confession is unnecessary, but neither does it mean that any of us can go around saying it’s very rare for God to forgive anybody. We have to accept that we don’t have a clue, trust in God’s mercy, and pray that God will be merciful. Indeed, if you truly think God’s forgiveness is “incredibly rare”, you should pray daily that he increase his mercy and save even moe sinners.


#105

Yeah, sure, but, you know…

So did Christ.

And I trust him more than anything I could hear on an internet forum.

Also, I am speaking of forgiveness of people who die in mortal sin, and have not repented. Forgiveness via the ordinary means still occurs daily and abundantly. It makes sense God would not often forgive those who have obstinately refused his cries for repentance and remained impenitent till death. Surely, if the number of the saved is few, the number of great sinners saved is far fewer. Plus, barely anything is infallible.

Dying in a state of grace = Salvation.


#106

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