If Jesus has always existed, doesn't that presuppose that the Human race would fall into sin?

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

Not at all. God is One yet also three divine Persons who have always existed.
If human beings never existed, the Second Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity still always existed. Becoming incarnate was a consequence of God’s mercy towards human creatures.

I can’t answer that question. I believe that the Salvation of all is dependant on the acceptance of Jesus Christ even for the Holy Angels. And that the fall of the angels that became demons was that they rejected some aspect of Jesus Christ, His mortality, Infinite Mercy etc.etc. St. Louis de Montefort states that Satan fell because he rejected Our Blessed Mother. In this then all of Creation revolves around Jesus Christ. Our own existence is dependant solely on the Holy Trinity. I believe if you study the Nicene Creed it will show how I came to form this understanding.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year,
BP

Well, of course God always knew what choice Adam and Eve would make and He knew what provision He would make because of this.

It’s inaccurate to say that Jesus always existed. God the Son, the second Person of the Blessed Trinity, always existed. At a particular instant in time, by the power of the Holy Spirit, He took on a human nature and became present in the womb of Mary. In His divinity, He existed from all eternity. As Jesus, He entered into our world in a new way, as one of us, without ceasing to be God.

The answer to this question involves two concepts. The first is time and space which do not exist in spirituality. The second is predestination vs free will.

“yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist.” (1 Cor. 8:6)

"Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground” " Genesis 1:26.

“God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them” Genesis 1:27.

 God is eternal.  God always was and always will be.  God doesn't change.  God is not constrained as we are by this temporal existence.   I don't think we can separate Jesus from His Humanity nor His  being the Second Divine Person in the Holy Trinity.  

I don’t believe that we can understand God. At best we can give pious presentations and interpretations of Holy Scripture. There is just something that makes me feel uneasy about separating Jesus Christ, the Son of God from His Humanity. But that is just me.

I don't know if  Adam and Eve had to sin.

Happy New Year,

Hey all

BluesPicker, can i please have a link to a source that states that satan fell because he rejected Our Blessed Mother. As far as i know, the Church and the scriptures teach that satan fell because he was jealous of God.

Thanks,
God Bless.

I don’t know how that follows.

Jesus did not always exist as Jesus the Incarnate God but He did eternally exist as the Second Person of the Trinity.

He became Jesus as we know Him only when He became Incarnate to Mary not before.

How his Eternal Sonship to God the Father presupposes the fall of man just is not evident. It does not logically follow.

Hi Christ_is_Love,

The reference to St. Louis de Montefort about the fall of Satan is contained and explained in Spiritual Theology Classes Seven & Eight (both parts 1 & 2 of each class).
There is some overlap in the Spiritual Warfare Classes that follow immediately after the Spiritual Theology Classes. This material was composed and given by Father Chad Ripperger, Priestly Fraternal Society of St. Peter, who has attended the Vatican’s program of instruction for exorcists & also obtained a doctorate in theology. The lectures are clear, concise, to the point, and easy to understand:

     [ Spiritual Theology and Spiritual Warfare Classes & Lectures by  Fr. Chad Ripperger]("http://www.sensustraditionis.org/multimedia.html")

These are audio lectures and they really touch on many important points. I really hope that all who are lay people interested in Spiritual Warfare listen to these lectures and really study them. Really his lectures remind me of some the sermons and personal communications of a priest of my youth who was in Poland as a priest in WW II. He was a personal friend of St. Maximilian Kolbe. I heard many stories about Padre Kolbe. Fr. Mike had a terrible speech impediment because the tip of his tongue was cut off. One time when I was serving as an alter boy a man came to Mass. He sat in the left front row facing the alter and next to the center aisle. He was an ex-Nazi SS Gestapo officer the good father said after Mass. This man came to disturb the Mass. He stared really glaring intently and never blinked once that I noticed. Fr. Mike very upset. Also we were adjusting to the new way the priest celebrates the Mass. The proper celebration of the Mass was a great concern always to Fr. Mike.

  Well anyway these rather new lectures remind me of the priest from Poland.  

BP

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