if not evolution....


#1

seriously, if you believe in creation, how did man/woman come to be?? do you believe a fully formed man/or baby just 'appeared'??etc....what is your belief on the PHYSICAL creation of man??serious replies only...ty


#2

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=408684

I sense this thread will get out of hand quickly


#3

[quote="WINGS_DAY, post:1, topic:274754"]
seriously, if you believe in creation, how did man/woman come to be?? do you believe a fully formed man/or baby just 'appeared'??etc....what is your belief on the PHYSICAL creation of man??serious replies only...ty

[/quote]


#4

Hello WINGS DAY;

Yes I believe that Adam and Eve were created fully formed,

Take care

Eric


#5

[quote="WINGS_DAY, post:1, topic:274754"]
seriously, if you believe in creation, how did man/woman come to be?? do you believe a fully formed man/or baby just 'appeared'??etc....what is your belief on the PHYSICAL creation of man??serious replies only...ty

[/quote]

Seriously, if you believe (unquestioningly) in evolution, how have we not had numerous spontaneous creations of new strands of life in the last 4 billion years??? What is your belief on why we haven't had tons of new evolutionary explosions resulting in an untold number of kingdoms, families, etc.??? Why don't we have more sentient lizard-men running around??


#6

[quote="WINGS_DAY, post:1, topic:274754"]
seriously, if you believe in creation, how did man/woman come to be?? do you believe a fully formed man/or baby just 'appeared'??etc....what is your belief on the PHYSICAL creation of man??serious replies only...ty

[/quote]

Yeah, they say these questions get out of hand.
What is dogmatic is that God created the human Soul. My Soul, your Soul, everybody's Soul. Soul=Spirit= Me.
Soul=Spirit= You.
Soul=Spirit= He or She but not it.
I, Soul, am speaking to you, Soul, through our bodies.
When the spermatozoa of my father united with the ovula of my mother, God created me.
Me=Soul=Spirit.
My Body grew in my mother's womb, under the directions of the DNA, evolution made by God, till my birth. DNA drove me to what my body is now.
My Body will die and resurrect one day.
Me=Spirit=Soul will live forever.
I hope at the side of MyLord.


#7

Consider - IDvolution


#8

Most Catholics do believe in evolution. Despite atheist claims, Catholicism and science can in fact go hand in hand. The big bang theory was first thought up by a Jesuit Priest after all :thumbsup:


#9

I am not a scientist, and I have not done heavy amounts of research on this, but these are some things I have found to be a very common 'occurrence':

1) Pretty much all 'hard evidence' of evolution is really only evidence of adaptation, which I believe in 100%. Did humans evolve so that we no longer needed our spleens, or did our bodies adapt to the change in habitat and consumption? However, those believing in evolution often use this evidence to support the theory of evolution, but you can't take Proof for A and extend it to B just because it falls within B's limits.

2) No one can give a clear explanation of how life began when there was no life. Or for that sake, how anything came to be. We ask where life came from, and it was a special combination of circumstances at the Earth's formation. So where di the Earth come from? Why the Big Bang of course. But where does the matter that comprised the Big Bang come from? Ultimately, you get down to 'how did this get here?', and since inanimate material cannot create inanimate material, you reach the end of that argument.

3) When asked about other species, why humans have rational thought and free will but other creatures don't, why humans haven't evolved into the next 'higher' species, etc, the answer appears to always be the same: It is so slow over time, you would never notice it. Well considering the billions upon billions of species, how did they all evolve from a single cell organism? And the one I always wonder about: Evolution means survival of the fittest, they evolve, etc. So why do we still have single-celled organisms? Why haven't they all either evolved or been killed off? They've had ample time, no doubt about that based on the Big Bang Theory, so why are they still the same.

Look, I'm sure there are answers to some of these questions that I haven't learned about, or are too technical for my understanding. But at the end of the day, when you stand all the doubts side by side, I don't see how it is every more than a theory.


#10

[quote="Gordon_Sims, post:5, topic:274754"]
Seriously, if you believe (unquestioningly) in evolution, how have we not had numerous spontaneous creations of new strands of life in the last 4 billion years??? What is your belief on why we haven't had tons of new evolutionary explosions resulting in an untold number of kingdoms, families, etc.??? Why don't we have more sentient lizard-men running around??

[/quote]

Evolutionary explosion need a reason to explode, they don't just come from no where. For example, human beings would not have emerged hadn't the dinosaurs went extinct.. which allowed for mammals to become the new dominate family.


#11

[quote="buffalo, post:7, topic:274754"]
Consider - IDvolution

[/quote]

Considered. It has absolutely no scientific merit. Also, this is basically an advertisement. It's spam and should be deleted like all the other promotional links people post.

And why you're allowed to keep something like that in your sig with an almost forum-wide evolution ban is beyond me.


#12

[quote="WINGS_DAY, post:1, topic:274754"]
seriously, if you believe in creation, how did man/woman come to be?? do you believe a fully formed man/or baby just 'appeared'??etc....what is your belief on the PHYSICAL creation of man??serious replies only...ty

[/quote]

Creation was created out of nothing. Man was created out of creation itself, except for his rational soul, which is imparted to him directly by God. Hence we are both composite and contingent beings. Exactly because man is ultimately created out of nothing in one part (body), and exists only contigently in his other part (soul), he is susceptible to doubt, skepticism, existentialism, denial, et al.

Doubt is contrary to reality. (Think about it).

Doubt is therefore contrary to nature. (This is a logical extension of the above).

Doubt is contrary to Faith. (Self-evident.)

Faith therefore is in keeping with nature and reality; nature and reality are in keeping with Faith.

Evolution is absurd because every genetic disorder is contrary (vicious or at least hazardous) to life.

Evolution by definition is a genetic disorder.

The Bible teaches devolution. The Catholic Faith calls this generally sin, original sin, death. Hence with the first sin death entered into existence. Sin and its consequence, death, are therefore unnatural and contrary to life. Sin therefore vitiates (damages or injures) life generally.

The Bible teaches that man has had three major periods of natural life expectancy: Immortal (in Paradise), long mortality (after the Fall) and short mortality (after the Flood). All men know that incest jeopardizes life. Compound incest is especially dangerous. Following the Flood, mankind was reduced from millions to a single family of eight persons. Consequently, with the loss of an enormous amount of genetic information, the human race's life expectancy collapsed. This is exactly what we would expect.

Therefore what the Bible teaches and proposes for Faith is in keeping with reality and nature.


#13

[quote="Farsight001, post:11, topic:274754"]
Considered. It has absolutely no scientific merit. Also, this is basically an advertisement. It's spam and should be deleted like all the other promotional links people post.

And why you're allowed to keep something like that in your sig with an almost forum-wide evolution ban is beyond me.

[/quote]

Take a look at the resources page and you can see all the science to support the philosophy.

The ban is on discussions of ***********. IDvolution is not *********. But you already know that.


#14

Evolution, evolution,Evolution, evolution,Evolution, evolution,Evolution, evolution,Evolution, evolution,Evolution, evolution,Evolution, evolution,Evolution, evolution,Evolution, evolution,

BUT

no one seems to care where the Spirit, where the Soul, where I came from....
The Spirit, The Soul, I, me....

AS

The important is the Soul, the Spirit, which are eternal and immortal, not the Body, which dies.

Will anybody deal with the Soul, the Spirit.


#15

[quote="lemondiesel, post:10, topic:274754"]
Evolutionary explosion need a reason to explode, they don't just come from no where. For example, human beings would not have emerged hadn't the dinosaurs went extinct.. which allowed for mammals to become the new dominate family.

[/quote]

True, but the only two events that can rightly be called evolutionary explosions are the Cambrian Explosion and the more recently termed Avalon Explosion (the spread of the Ediacaran lifeforms). (Note: I'm simply going along with the long-held description of these as true evolutionary explosions leading to a variety of new phyla and ignoring the more recent finds that indicate these weren't quite as radical or explosive as first though.) There have been five mass extinction events and none of them led to the same sort of apparent diversification that was seen with the two evolutionary explosions. The Cretaceous "explosion" I don't think really counts since it was simply a diversification of mammals and not a widespread appearance of new species across multiple phyla. In fact, if you assume, just for the sake of argument, that the multiple species initially relegated to the "unknown" phylum truly represented completely unique phyla, then as time goes on, life appears to be becoming less diverse at a higher level, regardless of the number of species. This seems counterintuitive to evolution on a whole, which should allow for greater diversification over time, not less.

Also completely contrary to the spirit of the theory of evolution is that all life seems to trace back to a single, common ancestor, sprung from the theoretical primordial ooze. Whether the ooze was located in a tide pool struck by lightning or swirling around a hydrothermal vent, these aren't unique circumstances that existed for a brief period 4 billion years ago and then disappeared. They've persisted throughout the entire history of the planet. Logically speaking, shouldn't entirely new branches of life be springing up all the time? What made that one single point 4 billion years ago so special that it's never been repeated? The "ripe conditions" from which life sprung forth have always been here; why isn't more life spontaneously springing forth all the time? Evolution doesn't just allow for that; it practically mandates it. The fact that it's not occurring all the time seems to indicate that there's something else at play.


#16

[quote="Pfaffenhofen, post:14, topic:274754"]

The important is the Soul, the Spirit, which are eternal and immortal, not the Body, which dies.

Will anybody deal with the Soul, the Spirit.

[/quote]

The Catholic Church deals with the whole person including the spiritual soul.

For some extremely interesting reading, check out paragraphs 355 - 421 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Warning -- :eek:

This CCC section contains some heavy stuff, so it is advised to keep dark chocolate nearby.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect.


#17

[quote="grannymh, post:16, topic:274754"]
The human person is worthy of profound respect.

[/quote]

It is so vogue to be vague and subtle!


#18

The philosophy

which serves as the basis for the biological theories regarding human nature is materialism or one of its forms. That is perfectly fine since natural science is in the material/physical domain.

What people need to remember is that human nature, per se, unites both the material world and the spiritual world. This is why it can be said that we are made in the image of God. Therefore, we are called by God to share in His life eternally through knowledge and love. This is why the first human person, Adam, and ourselves were created.

It is our decomposing anatomy which is in the material/physical domain and thus it is the subject of scientific research. Unfortunately, God did not leave His recipe for human bones and guts with us. Nonetheless, we do know that since we are considered vertebrates, we share similarities with vertebrates in the animal kingdom.
This is natural since animals and ourselves have anatomies made of matter.

Did God form Adam's body from entirely new matter or from existing matter? Does it really matter? (Sorry about that--I couldn't resist.;))

"Matter" is across the board of life. What made Adam different from all other living organisms is that God created a spiritual soul as the essential principle of human nature. The unity of soul and body is deeply profound. It is because of its spiritual soul that the anatomy consisting of matter becomes a living human being. Spirit and matter are not two natures united but rather their union forms one, single nature, that of a human person, you and me.

The Catholic Church has it right when it speaks about human nature and its ultimate purpose of eternal happiness. The Church has it right when it connects the salvific mission of Jesus Christ with the first human being. A salvific mission made necessary because the first human let his trust in his Creator die in his heart. And thus, freely choosing to disobey God's requirement which would maintain perfect friendship between God and man, Adam preferred himself over God. By that very act Adam, the created one, scorned His Creator. Yet, God did not abandon us. A Redeemer was promised. The rest is history.


#19

[quote="buffalo, post:13, topic:274754"]
Take a look at the resources page and you can see all the science to support the philosophy.

The ban is on discussions of ***********. IDvolution is not *********. But you already know that.

[/quote]

I see someone who has no idea what they're talking about, claiming understanding of the sources they cite, when those sources in reality oppose your position and you're shooting yourself in the foot with them. I also see poor, non-scholarly sources and op-ed pieces from non-experts. I could write an article about something too. That doesn't make it worthy of being cited. You want people to start accepting your idea? Publish papers about it, with experimentation and data collection. Give speeches at symposiums. Teach classes on it at your church. Get enough information to actually teach a class on it at your church instead of a post every month or so. Spamming a link to your blog like this is nothing more than personal advertisement. It should be removed, like all other spamming people do. Rather, you should recognize what you're doing and willingly stop yourself. That would be ideal. Before the evo-ban, it was half of what you post. I kept track.


#20

[quote="grannymh, post:18, topic:274754"]
The philosophy

which serves as the basis for the biological theories regarding human nature is materialism or one of its forms. That is perfectly fine since natural science is in the material/physical domain.

[/quote]

In the old days on CAF, I would refer to two different ways of exploring reality. The original reasoning has been updated out of respect for the current ban on evolution discussion.
The reasoning follows.

The philosophical position

that all reality is material is unable to address the uniqueness of the human species.
Instead of expanding this philosophical view to include [FONT=Arial]both the material *and *spiritual reality of humanity, the distinguishing uniqueness of the human species, which is its spiritual soul, was eliminated. Consequently, man became a material being, an animal with higher degrees of certain abilities. [/FONT]

By all means, the domain of natural science is that of the material and physical world. But that does not automatically eliminate the spiritual from inquiry as if it were non-existent. The choice of the single material explanation for the human species does not mean that other possibilities must be excluded from an independent analysis.

Ah, one says. The spiritual cannot be put under a microscope. True. But that does not exclude the reality of its existence which can be known by the tools of reason, self reflection, logical evaluation, and analytical thought.

What people need to remember is that human nature, per se, unites both the material world and the spiritual world. This is why it can be said that we are made in the image of God. Therefore, we are called by God to share in His life eternally through knowledge and love. This is why the first human person, Adam, and ourselves were created.

What made Adam different from all other living organisms is that God created a spiritual soul as the essential principle of human nature. It is because of its spiritual soul that the anatomy consisting of matter becomes a living human being. Spirit and matter are not two natures united but rather their union forms one, single nature, that of a human person, you and me.

My point is that by definition each reality, material and spiritual, has its own special tools used for exploration. The interesting thing is that the tools of reason, self reflection, logical evaluation, and analytical thought which are used for exploration of the spiritual domain, can also be used to explore the material domain.


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