If not the Real Presence, why Bleeding Hosts?


#1

If, according to Protestants, there is no Real Presence in the Eucharist, how can they explain the miracles of the Bleeding Eucharist?
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping55.htm
madredelleucaristia.it/eng/may17.htm
acfp2000.com/Miracles/eucharistic.html


#2

Also there is no scientific explanation for it as well.

Stich, Germany

In the Bavarian region of Germany, near the Swiss border, lie three hamlets the smallest of which is Stich. On the evening of June 9, 1970, as a visiting priest from Switzerland was celebrating a Tridentine Mass (Mass in Latin celebrated under the rubrics of the Council of Trent)in the chapel, an unusual series of events occurred. After the Consecration, the celebrant noticed that a small reddish spot began to appear on the corporal at the place where the chalice had been resting. Wondering if the chalice had begun to leak, the priest ran his hand under the chalice, but found it completely dry. By this time the small spot had spread to be about the size of a dime. After completing the Mass the priest inspected everything on the altar but could find no source of anything that could remotely be a source for the reddish stain. He locked the corporal containing the stain in a safe place until he could discuss the matter with the pastor.

On June 11th, after examining the corporal with the pastor, the cloth was photographed and sent to the Clinical Institute for Radial Therapy and Nuclear Medicine and the Polyclinical Institute of the University of Zurich for chemical analysis. The results of four separate analyses conducted on the cloth samples indicated that the cause of the stain was human blood that contained some of the biochemical markers of a man in agony.

On July 14th, the phenomena repeated itself at the chapel in Stich with four stains appearing on the corporal after the Consecration. Several days later, the pastor sent the corporal with the stains to the District Hospital at Cercee for analysis - the results: the stains were human blood!! One of the witnesses to this event, Joseph Talscher, the sacristan of the chapel, reported the following:

“On the evening of July 14, Father was celebrating Holy Mass in the chapel of Stich. Mindful of what had happened on June 9, we made certain that the cloths covering the altar were spotlessly clean…after taking Holy Communion, the priest made a sign to me and pointed to the altar. Then I saw the stains. After Mass we all took a closer look at the cloths and especially the large stain which was the size of a priest’s host. We saw a cross very distinctly on it.”


#3

Another, this one from the US

  • **Worcester, Massachusetts** has been the site of a series of inexplicable events surrounding a twelve year old girl who was brain-damaged in a swimming pool accident when she was 3 years old. Unable to walk or talk the girl, Audrey Santo, has become the focus of a growing number of Catholic mystical experiences. For the past nine years the only solid food she has eaten has been the Holy Communion which she receives daily. Several years ago, the local Bishop permitted the Blessed Sacrament to be reserved in a tabernacle housed in Audrey's room. On several different occasions the two gold engraved angels on the tabernacle door have wept fragrant oil. The oil has been examined by several different chemical labs but its makeup and origin is still unknown. Religious statues and pictures in Audrey's room have wept oil and sometimes blood...reminiscent of the Marian apparitions in Damascus, Syria.
  • On three occasions, the Consecrated Host taken from the tabernacle has dripped a reddish fluid. The fluid has been examined by an independent testing laboratory and found to be human blood. On Good Friday 1996, the tabernacle in Audrey’s room began bleeding. Audrey herself now has the stigmata - the visible wounds of Jesus. Visitors to her room have reported inexplicable healings and spiritual conversions. At least three of Audrey’s nurses, who were not Catholics when they first began to care for her, have since converted to Catholicism.

    In Audrey’s case, God has chosen a severely injured little girl to be one of His messengers to the world. He has given her multiple manifestations of His love and concern for her and for each of us. He wants us to know that it is He who comes to us in the Eucharist…it is He who wants us with Him for all eternity.


    #4

    They’d probably try and explain the miracles like this:

    [quote=Joe Protestant]Bah! Satanic works by the Popish Romanist decievers! Slight of hand tricks!
    [/quote]

    On another note, Eucharistic miracles sorta freak me out… I prefer my Real Presence to remain sacramental, thankyouverymuch. It’s a miracle every time the bread and wine is consecrated and becomes the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of my Savior. I don’t need physical proof to back it up.


    #5

    I recommend the book *Eucharistic Miracles *Joan Carroll Cruz, published by Tan Books. It discusses many of these and others - awesome stuff.:thumbsup:

    MBS1


    #6

    someone who does not accept Catholic teaching on the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the sacrament of the Eucharist will certainly not be receptive to unsubstantiated and unprovable reports of bleeding hosts or other phenomena, especially if supporte by easily manipulated and faked photographic or computer images. The way to convince someone of the truth of this dogma is to begin by instruction in the entire message of the Gospel, including authentic miracles, not by citing unverifiable “miracles” in support of a thesis. In any case, any unexplained phenomena can also be caused by demonic influence so by itself such a thing would not be proof of anything. Even if such events are perfectly genuine and have divine origin, they will not convince someone who has not accepted the authority of the Catholic Church to confect the Eucharist. Such mystical experiences can inform and enlighten the faith of believers, but will not convince unbelievers.


    #7

    But the Bleeding Host has appeared to those who have lapsed faith in the Real Presence in order to reaffirm their faith. As far as unsubstantiated, the Church has asked many in the Scientific community to provide tests on what causes the substance. I have seen one of them in Italy. The scientists say that it is human blood type AB with hemoglobic markers that occur when someone is experiencing intense pain.


    #8

    a Catholic with lapsed faith, or a non-Catholic, is unlikely to be in the presence of the exposed Blessed Sacrament, or still less at Mass, so it is unlikely they would view such a miracle at first hand, and second hand evidence is not likely to convince someone who has already rejected the words, acts and promises of Jesus Christ Himself. Whether or not you yourself are convinced is immaterial.


    #9

    [quote=puzzleannie]a Catholic with lapsed faith, or a non-Catholic, is unlikely to be in the presence of the exposed Blessed Sacrament, or still less at Mass, so it is unlikely they would view such a miracle at first hand, and second hand evidence is not likely to convince someone who has already rejected the words, acts and promises of Jesus Christ Himself. Whether or not you yourself are convinced is immaterial.
    [/quote]

    Bolsena, Italy

    In 1263 Peter of Prague, a German priest, was celebrating Mass at the Church of Saint Christina in Bolsena. He had been entertaining serious doubts about the reality of Christ’s presence in the consecrated Host. As he completed the words of Consecration blood started to seep from the Consecrated Host and run down over his hands onto the altar and the altar communion linen (corporal). Seeing this, he interrupted the Mass and traveled quickly to Orvieto, where Pope Urban IV was then residing. On hearing his story, the Pope forgave him for having doubts and sent representatives to Bolsena to investigate. Parishioners and others confirmed the priest’s story and the host and stained linens were there for all to see. Their investigation, when completed, confirmed all that the priest had related. One year later, in August 1264 Pope Urban instituted the feast of Corpus Christi (Body of Christ).


    #10

    a priest in the act of celebrating Mass, even if he has doubts, is a far cry from a Catholic who has left the Church or a non-Catholic who never had a belief or knowledge in the Catholic view of the sacraments, which seems to be the topic of the original post.


    #11

    So, assuming that the Blood is real, why is it that it should only appear to Catholics. Same goes for the crying statues of Mary, stigmata, etc.


    #12

    I believe in the real presence also but remember that often miracles are based on our expectations and not necessarily reality. This is made true by the fact that although Catholics believe in the real presence they do not believe that they are actually taking a bite out of Christ’s arm or sucking his blood out through a straw so to speak. This goes into a whole different issue that would require a whole thread.

    Anyways back to the original premise.

    For instance the stigmata tends to form on the hands and not the wrists. Now, we do not know for sure but we have good reason to believe that Jesus was staked through the wrists and not the hands.


    #13

    some later stigmatists have had it through their wrists.

    This could be explained by a change in historical understanding of the nature of crucifixion and the need to have the victim kept in place on the cross. In other words its all about belief.


    #14

    Is it possible that the bread and wine are just symbols?


    #15

    [quote=David Brent]Is it possible that the bread and wine are just symbols?
    [/quote]

    No, the host and wine literally become the Body and Blood of Jesus. Now, chemically, they are (usually, except in above mentioned instances) still bread and wine. It’s a bit tough to wrap your head around, but what you receive is quite literally Jesus. Do you think we would meditate in front of the Blessed Sacrament if it only signified Jesus? Why show so much reverence if it isn’t the real thing? Some Christian denominations believe that their hosts are simply representations, but when a Catholic priest blesses the bread and wine, they transubstantiate into the Body and Blood.

    Another interesting sidenote: years ago during practice for my First Communion, we received unblessed hosts. Personally, I thought they were just nasty. But, the next day when I received a blessed host, it just somehow seemed so much better (and considering that I really didn’t care back then, it wasn’t just the anticipation that made me think this).

    Eamon


    #16

    But the Bleeding Host has appeared to those who have lapsed faith in the Real Presence in order to reaffirm their faith.

    well, protestants (like David Brent) would probably say that these ‘miracles’ were sent by satan to attack these priests during a moment of weakness, to bring them back into the error of their RCC beliefs.

    or they would ignore these miracles altogether, and say they never happened. even though you can go to luciano, italy today and see a host that is part of a human heart, and miraculously does not decompose, even though it’s been exposed to the air for over 400 years.

    but i don’t discourage you guys from sharing these stories with protestants. those who are open-minded might take them seriously, and it might lead to their conversion.

    i have a friend who read about the incorruptibles, and this was instrumental in his becoming catholic.


    #17

    [quote=JackmanUSC]But the Bleeding Host has appeared to those who have lapsed faith in the Real Presence in order to reaffirm their faith. As far as unsubstantiated, the Church has asked many in the Scientific community to provide tests on what causes the substance. I have seen one of them in Italy. The scientists say that it is human blood type AB with hemoglobic markers that occur when someone is experiencing intense pain.
    [/quote]

    In my former life as an Adventist, I often heard that these miracles were parts of the “signs and wonders” produced by Satan in order to deceive people. It would lead people into the RCC, and thus away from the truth.

    :slight_smile:

    Brandon


    #18

    [quote=jeffreedy789]well, protestants (like David Brent) would probably say that these ‘miracles’ were sent by satan to attack these priests during a moment of weakness, to bring them back into the error of their RCC beliefs.

    or they would ignore these miracles altogether, and say they never happened. even though you can go to luciano, italy today and see a host that is part of a human heart, and miraculously does not decompose, even though it’s been exposed to the air for over 400 years.

    but i don’t discourage you guys from sharing these stories with protestants. those who are open-minded might take them seriously, and it might lead to their conversion.

    i have a friend who read about the incorruptibles, and this was instrumental in his becoming catholic.
    [/quote]

    Why would you assume that I would think Satan caused that to happen just because I am “Protestant.” That’s just silly.

    I have no idea why it happened. There could be any number of reasons why it happened. One of them could be that it’s a sign from God. I think miracles happen every day. People are healed of disease. Miraculous. People are raised from the dead. Miraculous. Someone lays hands on someone paralyzed on his left side and that person regains feeling and over the next few days and weeks regains functions and dexterity and speech. Miraculous.

    Not only do I have no idea why it happened, but I really don’t care. It matters not to my faith how that host turned red. The problem I have with getting worked up about signs and wonders is that you can get caught up in looking for them all the time and feel separated from God when they don’t occur. That is not healthy.

    You don’t remain excited about your spouse only when he or she does great things for you, do you? You don’t withhold anything from your spouse unless he or she does what you want, do you?

    As for the conversion comment: the Church is one Body. What would I gain by leaving my “Protestant” church and coming to a Catholic church?


    #19

    [quote=joeprotestant]Bah! Satanic works by the Popish Romanist decievers! Slight of hand tricks!
    [/quote]

    *“How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.” (Mark 3:23-26) *


    #20

    [quote=turboEDvo]No, the host and wine literally become the Body and Blood of Jesus. Now, chemically, they are (usually, except in above mentioned instances) still bread and wine. It’s a bit tough to wrap your head around, but what you receive is quite literally Jesus. Do you think we would meditate in front of the Blessed Sacrament if it only signified Jesus? Why show so much reverence if it isn’t the real thing? Some Christian denominations believe that their hosts are simply representations, but when a Catholic priest blesses the bread and wine, they transubstantiate into the Body and Blood.

    Another interesting sidenote: years ago during practice for my First Communion, we received unblessed hosts. Personally, I thought they were just nasty. But, the next day when I received a blessed host, it just somehow seemed so much better (and considering that I really didn’t care back then, it wasn’t just the anticipation that made me think this).

    Eamon
    [/quote]

    I understand the doctrine of transubstantiation. But I think your questions are telling. Why wouldn’t you meditate on Jesus when partaking of communion – even if it was “only” a wafer and some wine? It’s a ceremony. A tradition. A remembrance of what Christ did for all of us. He bore the burden of Sin so we did not have to. To me, that is worth meditating on every day – not just when partaking of communion. The sacrifice that He became for us deserves our reverance regardless of whether the bread and wine transubstantiate. The Catholic Church’s decision to incorporate this remembrance in every mass is commendable. In the Protestant church, we don’t have communion every service – byproducts of the Reformation I imagine.

    My point is that it doesn’t matter whether the communion host and the wine transubstantiate. What they represent is enough to get my attention and focus my reverance on Christ, and what He so graciously did for me.


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