If the Church isn't true, how would you know?


#42

I’m an engineering student so I get you. Logic and reason are very effective tools. But a world where all knowledge is simply an exercise in logic just isn’t our world.

You can learn and grow by feeling as well. There’s some scientific evidence to show that emotion may be one way we deal with extremely complex situations. Much of life is too complicated to “logic” through it. But emotion somehow allows us to break through and see the light.


#43

Yes true. Even secular atheists believe their way is the truth. And they proclaim it a lot!

This is an illustration that human beings are indeed wired to search for truth. And that reveals the absurdity of the anti-religion point of view.


#44

So The Logical truth would be that agnostics and those that, like Socrates believe true knowledge is knowing that you know nothing are right haha. Truth is no one knows what happens when you die.


#45

I know the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church by this:

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” - Matthew 16:18

Peter was the first Pope and was given the keys to the kingdom. The Papacy will never fall to evil


#46

I’m pretty sure Socreates was not espousing relativism when he said that knowledge is that you know nothing. Everything you know, you learned.


#47

I’ve noticed from the responses that most people aren’t even answering the question- even hypothetically. Almost every answer leads back to WHY the church is true.

I’ve visted many churches. When something may be false/ wrong within the churches people always say “the church is perfect people aren’t”.

Yes, we should love one another!

I


#48

The question has been answered. Some just don’t like the answer.

Answer: Matt 16:18. If this isn’t the church hell would prevailed and it would cease to exist.

Yet, we have had 2000 years of corruption, immorality, antipopes, general messing up and the church is still here. This Church is built upon the rock. This is the church of Matt 16:18.


#49

You seem to have been taught that the Bible is the final authority. The Bible does not say this about itself. This is a doctrine that was created during the Reformation about 1500 years after Jesus established His One Church, which is the pillar and ground of the truth. (I Tim. 3:15).

Yes, but first we must receive the Apostolic faith with eagerness. Jesus entrusted this message to His Apostles, who commissioned Bishops to continue this work. These are entrusted with preserving the truth of what was handed down to us.

They were more noble because they received the word with eagerness from those to whom it had been entrusted. Those who espouse Sola Scriptura were separated from this connection with the Sacred Traditions we were commanded to hold fast.

I think you are assuming that Catholics do not read their Bible? I do wish more Catholics knew their Bible better, but you don’t seem to be understanding there is a difference between Sacred Tradition, and human traditions.

It sounds like you are trusting what God tells you in your heart more than you are what God has revealed to the Church. You have made yourself your own Pope!

I think by this you are referring to the Bible. If that is true, then Jesus would not have needed to establish a Church and entrust the Truth to her.

From a broader perspective Jesus is the Word, and yes, we believe He is the final and fullest revelation from God. He is present and alive in His Church, where He promised to remain until the end of the age.


#50

Indeed it is.

The New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics. This verse does not say that the Scripture is complete. It says that Scripture is “profitable”. Now, who is to be doing this teaching, rebuking, correcting and training? Not the text, as these are tasks that belong to persons, not writings, however Holy.

he gave gifts to his people.”

" 11 The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. " Eph 4

Jesus did not set it up so that people would read the Bible, and attempt to equip themselves for the faith. Instead, before a word of the NT was ever written, he placed people in charge of these duties. It is their job to equip the saints for the work of the ministry, and guide us into maturity in the faith. Scripture is profitable in the hands of those that God has gifted for this purpose.

Another thing that we can agree upon! Jesus is Head of His One Body, the Church, which He has promised to guide into all Truth. This is why we call the Church our Mother. She is His Holy Bride, and His building, into which he has grafted us as living stones.


#51

If Scripture equips us for EVERY GOOD WORK and makes the man of God complete, what more do we need? “All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be COMPLETE, equipped for EVERY good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Also, Jude 1:3 says we should contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

Paul said he taught the whole will of God and that there would be savage wolves who would come to draw away disciples after themselves (Acts 20:26-31). These would be those who would want men to follow them rather than Jesus. They like to take credit for the salvation of others.


#52

If the Church isn’t true, how would you know?

We can know because Jesus himself established the true Church on Earth

which the Catholic Church follow and which is GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT and JESUS CHRISH HIMSELF THROUGH HIS TRUE CHURCH AND THE POPE Matthew 16:16-18 7 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.18 And I say to thee : That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

When Our Lord said to Peter, “And I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven,” He clearly meant: “I will give you supreme authority over My Church. You shall be My representative.” The true test of loyalty to Christ is not only to believe in Him and worship Him, but to honor and obey the representatives He has chosen. Our Lord chose St. Peter as His Vicar. It is rebellion against Christ to say to Him: “I will worship You, but I will not recognize Your representative.” This is what Christians do, who deny the authority of the successor of Peter.


#53

Jesus did not set it up so that people would read the Bible, and attempt to equip themselves for the faith.

In response to your statement above, Scripture [God] says:

  • “For who knows a person’s thoughts except his spirit within him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God” (1 Corinthians 2:11-12).

  • “Test all things. Hold on to what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

  • “Like newborn infants, desire the pure milk of the word, so that you may grow up into your salvation” (1 Peter 2:2).

  • “You have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and you have found them to be liars” (Revelation 2:2).

  • “As soon as it was night, the brothers and sisters sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. Upon arrival, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. The people here were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, since they received the word with eagerness and examined the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Consequently, many of them believed, including a number of the prominent Greek women as well as men.” (Acts 17:10-12).

  • "She had a sister named Mary, who also sat at the Lord’s feet and was listening to what he said " (Luke 10:39).

In view of what Scripture says, whom should I believe: You or God? And how can I know what truth is if I don’t compare it with the teachings of Jesus? How do I know who the modern-day Pharisees are, who are trying to keep people from entering the kingdom of heaven? “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you don’t go in, and you don’t allow those entering to go in" (Matthew 23:13).


#54

The pillar and bulwark of truth, perhaps?

“3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Which is not Scripture.

Through the pillar and bulwark of truth: the Church! Established and protected by God Himself as He stated in Matthew 16:18-19.

“16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”


#55

You’re identifying yourself as Jewish. Did you know, Salvation comes through the Jews :slightly_smiling_face:. Now learn why.

Even the OT describes the after life in types and shadows. The NT gives us the answer. Jesus, God incarnate as a Jew, is also our savior. Get into study of the NT. The Catholic Church, the only Church Jesus established on Peter and those in union with Peter, making His Church in the beginning, 100% Jewish. Hang in there. Ask questions. You’re in the right place

Your 2nd statement is a great start.


#56

For me, it would be bad logic, missing information, or inconsistency.


#58

Oh my. After reading some of your posts, you don’t know your former faith as well as you probably think. You’ve come to the right place to get a number of your misconceptions about the Church corrected! You’ll find out that we do not have arbitrary beliefs or rules. I invite you to open a thread or two so the forum can discuss this. We don’t want to throw this topic off track.


#59

I agree and I find it scary that my fellow teachers have not been taught how to think through a question and reason around a problem. One of my standard sentences in the classroom is “Help him/her to think but don’t say the answer.” when one of the children need help. Another sentence the children hear is that: “They are in school to learn how to read, write, count and how to think.”

Since meeting Catholics and being received into the Catholic Church I have started (and forced to) to use my brain more. I don’t buy the quick answers to what the public say is true without reasoning around the question. I have been called to be “politically incorrect” several times and sometimes people are following the reasoning around the question and understand why it is not possible, or wanted to do X, Y or Z.


#60

Wow. I’m totally convinced I need to ditch my Bible for a watered down and tampered one and a whitewashed meatless and theologically incorrect Protestant faith.


#61

full of man made rules

Are there people in your denomination? Or just you… Serious question. You are denying the human element in any church. If you have not human beings, you have no church. At the heart of this question is the Incarnation of Christ. If you don’t believe Christ came into full human condition, you don’t understand how God accomplished salvation.

rules

Are the 10 commandments rules? Where did they come from? Yes from God of course, but how did God ordain they should be communicated? Did God throw a book down from heaven Joseph Smith style? Or did he give them to Moses and the Jewish people to be communicated to all the world?
How then can you denigrate the human element in the transmission of faith?

Or is it just those you don’t understand or agree with…and please note, that makes your belief the ultimate in disconnected man-made rules.
Food for thought.


#62

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