If we're justfully punished in Purgatory, then why was Jesus punished?


#1

If we go to Purgatory and get all of our sins burned out, we’re punished and freed from our sins according to their length and all is fair and just, then why did Jesus suffer? We ourselves already justfully get punished for our own sins.
If we already justfully get punished in Purgatory for our sins, then why did Jesus have to be punished for our sins? It doesn’t seem to make any sense to me…it’s as if Jesus went through uneccesary pain for no reason!:confused:


#2

[quote=PMV]If we go to Purgatory and get all of our sins burned out, we’re punished and freed from our sins according to their length and all is fair and just, then why did Jesus suffer? We ourselves already justfully get punished for our own sins.
If we already justfully get punished in Purgatory for our sins, then why did Jesus have to be punished for our sins? It doesn’t seem to make any sense to me…it’s as if Jesus went through uneccesary pain for no reason!:confused:
[/quote]

We’re forgiven of our sins only because of Jesus’ sacrifice, and we will achieve Heaven (as long as we died in God’s friendship), but the stain of sin still is on our souls and must be purified. We can’t enter His presence unless we are perfect, and Purgatory provides that perfection.

Peace and God bless! :slight_smile:

Eric


#3

Yes, but that purification requires suffering, and according to the length the sins we’ve committed. Since we already suffer for our own sins justfully, why did Jesus have to also?


#4

[quote=PMV]Yes, but that purification requires suffering, and according to the length the sins we’ve committed. Since we already suffer for our own sins justfully, why did Jesus have to?
[/quote]

Jesus’ death on the Cross opened the door to our forgiveness. It would be impossible for us to receive forgiveness without it. But, just as the Sacrament of Reconciliation contains an absolution and penace component, so does Purgatory. We’re forgiven through Christ’s passion, but made clean through Purgatory. The suffering we’ll undergo in Purgatory is separate and apart from Christ’s forgiveness. Perhaps you’re confusing the idea of forgiveness with the need for purification? We don’t suffer to receive his forgiveness. His gift is given freely without our merit. Our suffering allows us to become perfect, for nothing imperfect can enter Heaven.

Peace and God bless! :slight_smile:

Eric


#5

Jesus was’nt being “punished” for our sins. He made of himself an offering to God to open the gates of Heaven, because all the blood offerings that man made over the centuries COULD NOT make perfect attonement for our sins. Only Jesus could do that

He is the fulfillment of the pascal offering of the Jewish Passover meal. The Jews had to take a PERFECT lamb, kill it, paint it’s blood over the wood of the door frame and (most significantly) they had to EAT the lamb–in it’s entireity–or the first-born of the household would die.

But man broke the covenant with God soon after making it by making an idol for themselves before Moses could even get down the mountain.

Jesus’ sacrifice made attonement for all our offenses. Heaven was oppened for all who had died in the friendship of God. All those who had demonstrated true repentance for their sins.

Now, however, when we sin, we can be forgiven for our sins if we go to confession and show that we are truly sorry for our offences.
When the priest gives us absolution, our sins are WIPED OUT. But, on the other hand, God in his JUSTICE requires that we are punished for our sin. Paul tells us in Matt 5:26 you will not be released until paid last penny. Also, 2SAM 12:13-14-David, though forgiven, still punished for sin. This is Divine justice.

Lindalou :yup:


#6

[quote=PMV]If we go to Purgatory and get all of our sins burned out, we’re punished and freed from our sins according to their length and all is fair and just, then why did Jesus suffer?
[/quote]

You are misunderstanding the “punishment” which we suffer in Purgatory. It is not in atonement for our sin that made it impossible to aproach God and which Jesus provided. In Purgatory we make satisfation for the temporal (earthly)punishments which are due because of our personal sins–sins that are already forgiven.

It is often explained like this. If you break a window with a rock, you should go and ask forgiveness of the window owner. The window owner may forgive you for your sin. However, there is still the damage done: the window is still broken and must be fixed.

God has forgiven our sins through the merits of Christ. However our personal sins have caused damage in this world, and if we do not make it right in this world, we can make amends in the next. Along with cleansing us from attachments to personal sins, this is a chief purpose of Purgatory. As Revelation 22:27 says “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven.”


#7

[quote=PMV]If we go to Purgatory and get all of our sins burned out, we’re punished and freed from our sins according to their length and all is fair and just, then why did Jesus suffer? We ourselves already justfully get punished for our own sins.
If we already justfully get punished in Purgatory for our sins, then why did Jesus have to be punished for our sins? It doesn’t seem to make any sense to me…it’s as if Jesus went through uneccesary pain for no reason!:confused:
[/quote]

Let me just add to the foregoing comments that Christ’s sacrifice was necessary to allow men to be reconciled to God. Without this profound act of sacrifice on the part of our Lord Jesus, no human being would have been able to reconcile himself with God, because no mere man is pure enough, none is worthy of offering himself up to God, for all are** children of wrath**, and the kingdom of heaven would have remained permanently closed to us. It was truly an act of sacrifice on His part, to show us what He would be willing to do just to conciliate the world to Himself.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#8

Reading about the the wedding feast in Mt.22 always helps me think of purgatory (and this was discussed in one of my theology classes as well). There are many who are invited to the feast but do not come (just as God loves everyone, but not all accept His love and try to follow Him). There are many who are invited and come to the wedding feast, but there is one person who comes without appropriate attire, without a white garment. That person is not allowed to participate in the wedding feast, not because the master did not invite him, but because he did not come prepared (for lack of a better term). Jesus died for us and forgave our sins and His sacrifice is perfect. But we still seperate ourselves from Him by our sins - His forgivenss is still whole and complete but we choose to seperate ourselves from Him by our actions at times. As humans we are still so far from being God-like. Because God is perfect and we will dwell with Him in all His glory for all eternity, we would not want to come to Heaven without being purified and brought as close to Him as possible.

I can’t always articulate this as well as it seems in my head, but I hope that’s somewhat clear. :slight_smile:


#9

In Protestantism, murderers, child molesters, rapists, and others who commit heinous sins, have a direct ticket to heaven – along side those who have lived a holy and virtually sinless life – if only they believe. All of the ‘saved’ receive equal treatment.

In Catholicism, the sin and its guilt – even for heinous sins – can be forgiven through the merits of Christ’s sacrifice if true sorrow is sufficient, forgiveness is sought, and the person sincerely commits to amending his life and sinning no more. The ordinary means Christ gave us to get the sins we commit after baptism forgiven is through the Sacrament of Penance (John 20:19-23). But every sin, no matter how small, has a penalty. Nobody escapes the penalty. We “pay” for our forgiven deadly (mortal) sins and our minor (venial) sins either in this life or in the next. If we enter eternal life with the temporal punishment due to any of our deadly (mortal) or small (venial) sins still owing, or with venial sins unconfessed and unrepented, and/or if we are not totally free of the attachment to sin, our souls must be purified of these defects before we can enter heaven. The process of purification of the soul is called Purgatory.

As has already been pointed out, nothing unclean can enter heaven.

The sins are forgiven, but the penalty for them is not waived. Nobody skates. God’s justice demands that everyone be punished for their sins.

Latin: purgatio - cleansing, purifying

I find this to be one of the most consoling doctrines in Catholicism. It’s so logical. And so biblical. And it was taught by the Apostles.

For mortal and venial sins, see 1 John 5:16-17
For greater (and therefore lesser) sin: John 19:11

Unrepented deadly (mortal) sin sends us straight to hell, not to Purgatory. Purgatory is for the redeemed who are on their way to heaven.

C.S. Lewis, hero of Evangelicals, though not Catholic, believed in Purgatory.

JMJ Jay


#10

[quote=Katholikos]In Protestantism, murderers, child molesters, rapists, and others who commit heinous sins, have a direct ticket to heaven – along side those who have lived a holy and virtually sinless life – if only they believe. All of the ‘saved’ receive equal treatment.

[/quote]

Jay

Correct me if I’m mistaken but you are probably referring to the teaching on “eternal security”. This is precisely why we question this teaching. Why should we even live saintly lives, if I can just claim that I “believe” in Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, and live like a heathen the rest of my life ?

Gerry :slight_smile:


#11

[quote=PMV]it’s as if Jesus went through uneccesary pain for no reason!
[/quote]

2 Cor 5:21: DR: Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him. NAB: For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him. Gal 3:13: NAB: Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,” that the blessing of Abraham might be extended to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


#12

PMV,

A standard analogy given to illustrate purgatory is as follows: you, out of passion or some other reason, sin against your neighbor by heaving a rock through his window—the window is broken. Afterwards, you realise what a jerk you have been and go to your neighbor and apologize. He accepts your repentance, as it is heartfelt and you truly wish not to break his window again. However, the window is still broken even though you have repented of the act. Justice requires that you repair the window.

Sin has consequences. Though we are forgiven of our sins, through the grace of God through the sacrifice of Himself, justice demands that we make amends. Our task is to make amends (fix the window) for what we have done. We can do that now, in this life, by a sincere changing of our hearts and lives. However, we are not all Mother Theresa’s, and some of us, though basically good-hearted and not evil, fall short of the ideal. We are still attached to our sins in some ways, and perhaps have not made perfect restitution to God for past sins. C.S. Lewis (no Catholic), saw purgatory as a necessary “washing up” before the heavenly feast: we are stained and muddied by sin’s effects (windows remaining broken) on our journey through life. When we arrive at our destination (heaven), we need to wash up before sitting down at the heavenly banquet. Nothing unclean shall enter heaven, and many of us (not all) do die without having completely “washed up”. The Catholic Church gives us opportunities to fix the window, and so arrive at heaven’s banquet without having to linger in the washroom.


#13

correct me if i’m wrong but i seem to have picked this up somewhere-

there are two levels of punishment for our sins, the eternal and the temporal
jesus had to suffer and die because the perfect sacrifice was required to pay for the eternal punishment. thus, it is said that without his sacrifice, there would be no chance of entering heaven.

but as pointed out by many on this thread, there is temporal punishment and that needs to be paid for. we pay for it partly through our sufferings on earth and partly through purgatory so that nothing unclean will enter heaven

can the learned ones on this forum correct me if i’m wrong on this
i’d be really grateful
thanks


#14

Why is the idea of punishment after the granting of forgiveness such a difficult concept to grasp?

Sherlock’s excellent explanation using the broken window usually suffices to get the point across.

However, for those who rely on Sola Scriptura:

2 Sam 12:13David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan said to David, “Now the LORD has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”

Punishment AFTER forgiveness has been granted is very biblical.

There are many more examples in scripture, all of which are ignored by those who choose to not see.

Peace in Christ…Salmon


#15

Another analogy can be found in our court system. If I break into someone’s home and commit theft, I am guilty of a sin. Now, I may confess to a judge and tell him (and my victim) that I am guilty, and ask for their forgiveness. The victim, and the judge, may see my sincerity and believe that I am, in fact, truly sorry. They may completely forgive me. However, our court system will make sure that I am punished for what I have done: I may still go to jail. The judge may lighten my sentence depending upon his estimation of my sincerity and whatever restitution I may have been able to make already, but I will do some form of time for my crime. This is common sense.

Justinmatter, you are right on track and explained it better than I did.


#16

Much of what has been said about purgatory is conjecture and hypothesis, with very little evidence of its actual existence from Sacred Scripture. If purgatory actually exists and I am not sure one way or another, and if purgatory is as important as many of these threads seem to indicate, then it would appear logical to me that Paul would have made some direct references to it in his letters.

I do not believe it is a good idea to construct a system of beliefs without substantial evidence. I know that some will say that we accept purgatory based upon tradition; however, I find it difficult to “tradition” something into existence. As a cradle Catholic, I can recall a great deal of discussion 50+ years ago about unbaptised babies going to a place called limbo, but that notion has apparently lost its appeal over the years. Could it be, could it possibly be that the notion purgatory will likewise fall by the wayside.


#17

John,

Purgatory does have Scriptural support. I would recommend reading Newman on this topic, as he held similar assumptions.


#18

[quote=John Colean] Much of what has been said about purgatory is conjecture and hypothesis, with very little evidence of its actual existence from Sacred Scripture. If purgatory actually exists and I am not sure one way or another, and if purgatory is as important as many of these threads seem to indicate, then it would appear logical to me that Paul would have made some direct references to it in his letters.

I do not believe it is a good idea to construct a system of beliefs without substantial evidence. I know that some will say that we accept purgatory based upon tradition; however, I find it difficult to “tradition” something into existence. As a cradle Catholic, I can recall a great deal of discussion 50+ years ago about unbaptised babies going to a place called limbo, but that notion has apparently lost its appeal over the years. Could it be, could it possibly be that the notion purgatory will likewise fall by the wayside.
[/quote]

Good point, here is your reference from Paul:

1 Cor 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Paul cannot be talking about heaven because there is no suffering in heaven, likewise he cannot be talking about hell because nobody in hell is saved! The only logical explanation for this purging process that Paul speaks of of the doctrine of Purgatory.

Remember God’s love is an all consuming fire, the love of God burns away all remnants of sin so that the poor soul may enter heaven. Purgatory is not really a punishment, it is a gift, for without Purgatory those of us that die in an imperfect state would not be allowed into heaven. Praise God! :amen:


#19

[quote=Sherlock]PMV,

A standard analogy given to illustrate purgatory is as follows: you, out of passion or some other reason, sin against your neighbor by heaving a rock through his window—the window is broken. Afterwards, you realise what a jerk you have been and go to your neighbor and apologize. He accepts your repentance, as it is heartfelt and you truly wish not to break his window again. However, the window is still broken even though you have repented of the act. Justice requires that you repair the window.

[/quote]

Sherlock’s excellent explanation using the broken window usually suffices to get the point across.

Wow, deja vu! I could have sworn I already said this in a previous post! :slight_smile:


#20

I recall hearing Scott Hahn talk about purgatory not so much as a punishment as a process of purgation. He illustrated the fact that purgatory brings us a step closer to God. He noted that the angels that are closest to God in heaven are called the “seraphim,” which means “the burning ones.”

In faith,
Fiat


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