If you are born into Original Sin


#1

Then does that also apply unborn children (abortion, miscarriage)?


#2

Yes.


#3

[quote="Presence, post:1, topic:317116"]
Then does that also apply unborn children (abortion, miscarriage)?

[/quote]

Yes. Original sin attaches at the moment of conception when the soul enters the body. As a practical example, Mary's Immaculate Conception protected her from the stain of original sin at the moment of her conception, not at the time of her birth.


#4

[quote="Presence, post:1, topic:317116"]
Then does that also apply unborn children (abortion, miscarriage)?

[/quote]

Yes it does. If you're human then you re under the original sin.


#5

[quote="Presence, post:1, topic:317116"]
Then does that also apply unborn children (abortion, miscarriage)?

[/quote]

No. How can you be born into original sin if you were not born?


#6

[quote="TheDoctor, post:3, topic:317116"]
Yes. Original sin attaches at the moment of conception when the soul enters the body. As a practical example, Mary's Immaculate Conception protected her from the stain of original sin at the moment of her conception, not at the time of her birth.

[/quote]

Is that Church doctrine? If so,please point out where this can be read.


#7

[quote="Slowride, post:6, topic:317116"]
Is that Church doctrine? If so,please point out where this can be read.

[/quote]

How can evangelical Christians say that they are "no longer sinners" once they are "born again"? Especially when 1John chapter 1 says otherwise?


#8

[quote="Slowride, post:5, topic:317116"]
No. How can you be born into original sin if you were not born?

[/quote]

Excellent point.


#9

[quote="Slowride, post:5, topic:317116"]
. How can you be born into original sin if you were not born?

[/quote]

Pardon me, but "born into Original Sin is not Catholic teaching.

Original Sin is the deprivation of original holiness and justice. It is called "sin" only in an analogical sense. It is a sin "contracted" and not "committed". It is a state and not an act. It is transmitted by propagation from Adam and Eve to their descendants.

Source: paragraphs 404-405, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/404.htm
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/405.htm

Regarding children, including the unborn, please refer to paragraph 1261.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1261.htm

The last line of paragraph 1257 is especially important.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1257.htm

"God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments."


#10

[quote="Slowride, post:5, topic:317116"]
No. How can you be born into original sin if you were not born?

[/quote]

"Born into" is a figure of speech. Every unbaptized person has original son on their soul.


#11

[quote="Slowride, post:6, topic:317116"]
Is that Church doctrine? If so,please point out where this can be read.

[/quote]

As with a lot of Church doctrine, there is no single sentence in the Catechism that says "original sin enters now" however it seems clear when you look at two sections:**
***366* The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235
Here we see that the soul is immediately created at conception (it is what "created immediately by God" means).

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has** transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted,** a sin which is the "death of the soul".291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292
The bolded part is mine. Note that the Church says we are already afflicted i.e. we do not receive original sin once we are born but we already have it ("are afflicted"). The only place we can be afflicted prior to birth is in the womb before we are born.


#12

[quote="devoutchristian, post:10, topic:317116"]
"Born into" is a figure of speech. Every unbaptized person has original son on their soul.

[/quote]

This.

Look at it from the opposite perspective. If original sin only attaches at birth, then every aborted and miscarried baby would go to Heaven (soul + no sin = Heaven). Yet, through the centuries the church has wrestled with the fate of these children (think of the decades of speculation about the theory of Limbo) precisely because they have a soul + original sin even though they have not been born, so where do they go?

Read the sections of the Catechism on the Sacrament of Baptism and see if that helps to make it any clearer.


#13

[quote="Slowride, post:5, topic:317116"]
No. How can you be born into original sin if you were not born?

[/quote]

LOL! "Born into" is a figure of speech. Just think of it as being in our DNA, not literally, but you can think of it that way to make it easier to understand. From the moment of conception the unborn person has 100% human DNA therefore they have the original sin. Being human and made from human DNA (except in Jesus and Mary's case) makes you born with the original sin as if it's in our DNA.


#14

A little historical context makes it abundantly clear that the church has always considered Original Sin to be an inherited problem that we are all subject to (so it applies at conception, nothing magical happens at birth as all catholics should know by now).

Nobody here ever heard of the theological theory of Limbo? This was the prevailing theologica theory for centuries about what happened to miscarried babies and infants that died before being baptized. We know from Scripture that the sacrament of baptism infuses a human being with Grace and cleanses us from both Original Sin and our own actual sins. But theologians (and parents) wrestled with worry over what happened to children who died without receiving this Grace? Because the church has ALWAYS taught that all humans are subject to the effects of Original Sin (other than Mary, who was saved before the fact by a preventive miracle), theologians concocted the theory of Limbo that said that such babies can't actually experience heaven the way recipients of the Sacraments do. Since we know God is loving, they posited an alternative place where innocent children still stained by Original Sin are blessed with perfect natural happiness, but are unable to experience the full "beatific vision."

Some still believe in the idea of Limbo, but it's less common today. As far as I know, many theologians today believe that Limbo was a bridge too far and a conclusion drawn in territory beyond where we know enough to answer such a question. Baptism and the Sacraments are gifts by God to humanity, not chains on God's freedom. Perhaps unbaptized children can receive true salvation by means God hasn't yet revealed to us, but it is beyond our knowledge to rule on the matter with certainty. But no reputable catholic theologian asserts that the unborn or unbaptized infants are NOT afflicted by Original Sin.

And any parent who has ever had a newborn baby ought to know what utterly self-centered narcisissts babies are! Feed me NOOOWWWWW! Hold me NOWWWWWW! My gut hurts and you better do something to fix it NOOOWWWWWW! :D


#15

[quote="TheDoctor, post:11, topic:317116"]
As with a lot of Church doctrine, there is no single sentence in the Catechism that says "original sin enters now" however it seems clear when you look at two sections:
366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235
Here we see that the soul is immediately created at conception (it is what "created immediately by God" means).
403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has** transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted,** a sin which is the "death of the soul".291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292
The bolded part is mine. Note that the Church says we are already afflicted i.e. we do not receive original sin once we are born but we already have it ("are afflicted"). The only place we can be afflicted prior to birth is in the womb before we are born.

[/quote]

CCC 404 & 405 completes the teaching on Original Sin. CCC 406, in smaller print, presents an historical comment. (See CCC 20-21 for explanation)


#16

[quote="grannymh, post:15, topic:317116"]
CCC 404 & 405 completes the teaching on Original Sin. CCC 406, in smaller print, presents an historical comment. (See CCC 20-21 for explanation)

[/quote]

Thank you for the additional catechism references. Hopefully we have answered the OP's question.:thumbsup:


#17

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.