If you do not send your Children what tuition rate would be a no-brainer?


#1

This is for parents who do not send their K-8 children to a Catholic School only.

What is the highest tuition level per child that would mean you absolutely without question would send them to a Catholic Elementary School? Do not consider the tuitions in your area, but look at it from an affordability perspective.


#2

Can I clarify something? Obviously, the lowest amount would be a no-brainer…but, do you mean the highest amount that I could afford as a no-brainer? I think everyone might choose the lowest amount you have.


#3

[quote=Giannawannabe]Can I clarify something? Obviously, the lowest amount would be a no-brainer…but, do you mean the highest amount that I could afford as a no-brainer? I think everyone might choose the lowest amount you have.
[/quote]

Thanks, I reworded the question.


#4

I’m failing to see the point of this thread. Are you just asking people to disclose the amount of disposable income they have (to re-direct to Catholic education–assuming there was a high-quality program in which to enroll their kids?) And still, what’s the point? If you want to go to the movies, and the price is $10, you pay or stay home. Same with Catholic school–if you want your kids there, you pay the going rate (whatever it is in your locale) and if you can’t or won’t, the kids go elsewhere. Last I checked we didn’t get to vote on tuition.

In our case tuition isn’t the issue. It is the academic quality of the Catholic school. Our kids went to an excellent Catholic school before we moved, but now attend public schools because they are far superior schools. We will probably re-examine that for H.S. as there are considerably more/better options–both Catholic and private/non-denom.


#5

[quote=Island Oak]I’m failing to see the point of this thread. Are you just asking people to disclose the amount of disposable income they have (to re-direct to Catholic education–assuming there was a high-quality program in which to enroll their kids?) And still, what’s the point? If you want to go to the movies, and the price is $10, you pay or stay home. Same with Catholic school–if you want your kids there, you pay the going rate (whatever it is in your locale) and if you can’t or won’t, the kids go elsewhere. Last I checked we didn’t get to vote on tuition.
[/quote]

I am trying to get at what would it take to have full enrollment in Catholic Schools that are failing. It is my belief that there is an equilibrium point where enrollment is a function of tuition cost.


#6

[quote=buffalo]I am trying to get at what would it take to have full enrollment in Catholic Schools that are failing. It is my belief that there is an equilibrium point where enrollment is a function of tuition cost.
[/quote]

This is going to depend so much on what the local public schools are like (the public elementary school I went to was chock full of observant Catholics, while other schools are little short of war zones), what the qualities of the Catholic school are, including the student body and other parents, what the median income in the area is, what sort of quality there is in the CCD programs available, what the commuting issues are, what the local atmosphere is for home schoolers, and so on.

In other words, there is going to be a huge difference even from parish to parish within a diocese. Let’s just say that there are parents out there who willingly pay a monthly tuition that is above the highest figure you have there (yes, for private elementary school), and parents who could not swing the lowest tuition you have there. It’s only my opinion, but I think your research needs to be local to be useful to you.


#7

[quote=buffalo]I am trying to get at what would it take to have full enrollment in Catholic Schools that are failing. It is my belief that there is an equilibrium point where enrollment is a function of tuition cost.
[/quote]

I think you are incorrect. It is not the tuition that keeps people from enrolling their kids in Catholic schools. The primary consideration is the “quality” of education at the Catholic school vs. at the local public schools. And since “quality” is a “qualitative” rather than a “quantitative” factor, it can’t be quantified–that is, measured.


#8

Buffalo:

Where I live, there was a Catholic school that did away with tuition and had a tithing-only system in place. Over time, the quality of the school deteriorated because the school was in a blue collar part of town, so the parents were not financially well-off. And more importantly, parents only gave the minimum, like $500 (a modest amount aimed at making a Catholic education affordable for lower income families) in order to enroll their children in the school. So, families with 6 kids could send all of them to this school for $500. That won’t even pay the electric bill for the power that educating those children requires! It’s not like families gave 10% of their income to the that parish (which in turn completely supported the school), which was the hope and intention behind this concept.

Well, this tithe-only system was a disaster because the only thing it accomplished was to create a mediocre Catholic school. The students were not able to get into the all the Catholic high schools. The school got a poor repuation which affected enrollment. Parents of really smart, gifted or driven kids knew to send their children elsewhere for a better education. The bottom line is that you get what you pay for, thanks in part to the spiraling cost of private education and the absence of religious to staff the schools.

My point is that this approach, that is rock-bottom tuition rates, didn’t really help this Catholic school. Parents and parishes have to be willing to work very, very hard for their Catholic schools to succeed. It can’t be a free ride, or a low-tuition ride, for everyone or the school will fail (with a few exceptions). I don’t think that there is always an equilibrium point on the tuition-enrollment continum, parents at our school would pay more than we do because the school is outstanding, the fact that it’s relatively cheap is icing on the cake. Its unfortunate that not all families can afford a Catholic education, but you have to pay what it costs to send your children there. You can’t set a tuition level and create your school budget from that dollar amount.


#9

[quote=ReginaNova]I think you are incorrect. It is not the tuition that keeps people from enrolling their kids in Catholic schools. The primary consideration is the “quality” of education at the Catholic school vs. at the local public schools. And since “quality” is a “qualitative” rather than a “quantitative” factor, it can’t be quantified–that is, measured.
[/quote]

Do they put Catholic formation which includes education first, or is it education first, Catholic formation second?


#10

As one who opted to put kids in an excellent public school over a mediocre Catholic one…I KNOW I can educate my kids in the faith at home and with the support of RE classes. Conversely, I do not have the resources, training, experience or temperament to educate them in their various academic subjects at home. Do I miss having Catholic teachings permeate the subject matter they learn throughout their school day? Absolutely. But I was unwilling to sacrifice their academic training by placing them in a dramatically inferior academic setting.

I have also observed that resources limit some of what Catholic schools can offer. They frequently lack special education services, accelerated/gifted programs, have large class sizes, limited technology equipment, lab/science equipment, specialists in art or music, etc. The former benefit of having religious orders as instructors is almost non-existent and the very pricy market-driven issues of competitive compensation, health care benefits, maternity leave, etc. are a huge drain on these schools.


#11

[quote=buffalo]Do they put Catholic formation which includes education first, or is it education first, Catholic formation second?
[/quote]

I don’t know what you are getting at. But if you are asking what do people put first, the answer is everyone is different. Just because you think Catholic parents SHOULD put Catholic formation first, doesn’t mean it is going to happen. Otherwise, Catholic schools (and the Catholic faith) wouldn’t be in the condition they are in. (But then again, the same religious lethargy is true across denominations and across nations, unfortunately.)

When my kids were in Catholic schools, the president of the board–a Catholic man who was on his second marriage in a “yours, mine, and ours” family and whose wife also worked–discounted the volunteer work that the stay at home moms provided the school. All he cared about was the fundraising activities. I resented that his wife worked and he discounted the work that we put in during the day. He persuaded the priest that we needed to keep tuition low and increase fundraising responsibilities. To make a long story short, when I finally prevailed and the school raised tuition (and reduced fundraising responsibilities)–we had MORE money and happier parents who would rather pay more and do less mindless fundraising.


#12

For my husband and I, it boils down to the lack of quality educational opportunities but most especially the joke they offer in terms of Catholic formation. Why pay all of that money to be taught by a dissenting Theology program? Many of the academic teachers aren’t Catholic and when combined with a weak campus ministry or formation program, it becomes rather pointless. I have countless stories of being taught complete fabrications or outright lies by teachers about what the Church actually teaches. My mother is a convert and my father a lifelong product of Catholic education and both thought they were doing their kids a favor by sending us where they did. Unfortunately it was a waste of money IMO and in the case of a sibling or two probably did more harm than good. To this day, I still have friends and siblings from my Catholic school years who can quote what this or that morality teacher said and it’s often WRONG. Yet they have used these words as a compass during extremely formative years. It’s just so wrong. I really believe souls can be lost with careless Catholic teachers and schools. I don’t want to send my children to Catholic schools which require constant monitoring and damage control in terms of their faith development. It defeats the whole purpose of sending them there in the first place.


#13

[quote=Princess_Abby]For my husband and I, it boils down to the lack of quality educational opportunities but most especially the joke they offer in terms of Catholic formation. Why pay all of that money to be taught by a dissenting Theology program? Many of the academic teachers aren’t Catholic and when combined with a weak campus ministry or formation program, it becomes rather pointless. I have countless stories of being taught complete fabrications or outright lies by teachers about what the Church actually teaches. My mother is a convert and my father a lifelong product of Catholic education and both thought they were doing their kids a favor by sending us where they did. Unfortunately it was a waste of money IMO and in the case of a sibling or two probably did more harm than good. To this day, I still have friends and siblings from my Catholic school years who can quote what this or that morality teacher said and it’s often WRONG. Yet they have used these words as a compass during extremely formative years. It’s just so wrong. I really believe souls can be lost with careless Catholic teachers and schools. I don’t want to send my children to Catholic schools which require constant monitoring and damage control in terms of their faith development. It defeats the whole purpose of sending them there in the first place.
[/quote]

I very much disagree with the philosophy of blaming Catholic schools or CCD for the inadequate faith formation of adult Catholics. That is like blaming my public school education for my poor grasp of physics or inadequate grounding in world history. It is true that my education (at the best public schools in the state) was lacking. But at a certain point, as an adult, it is MY responsibility to fill in the gaps and not put the blame on my teachers of 10 or more years ago. Besides, between what the teacher says and what the kid “heard” and what the now adult student remembers and quotes the teacher as having said–well, it’s kind of like the game “telephone” except with Catholic morality.


#14

[quote=ReginaNova]I very much disagree with the philosophy of blaming Catholic schools or CCD for the inadequate faith formation of adult Catholics. That is like blaming my public school education for my poor grasp of physics or inadequate grounding in world history. It is true that my education (at the best public schools in the state) was lacking. But at a certain point, as an adult, it is MY responsibility to fill in the gaps and not put the blame on my teachers of 10 or more years ago. Besides, between what the teacher says and what the kid “heard” and what the now adult student remembers and quotes the teacher as having said–well, it’s kind of like the game “telephone” except with Catholic morality.
[/quote]

I hear what you’re saying, but I am not speaking about gaps in theological education. If that was the case, I’d have no problem whatsoever. I am speaking about blatantly wrong theological information imparted as truth. Specifically, classes that I was a part of and in which I still discuss amongst friends of mine who have since gone on to professionally participate in Catholic ministry, but were students in the same classes several years ago. (These three friends are an adult formation director at a parish, a high school theology teacher and a DRE–hence the reason they care enough to still talk about it every once in awhile, as they know from their own career choice how important it is to impart the truth to anyone they are entrusted t teach.) I vividly remember several situations, especially since one particular scandal opened up the entire can of worms and much of what was being taught finally came out to parents and administration. (A long story having to do with a lesbian religious sister openly talking to students (me included) about her sex life with a fellow sister.) We were absolutely misguided in certain aspects of our faith. At the time, I was already educated in our faith thanks to my parents and personal interest, but many of my classmates’ formation was directly dependent upon the information provided by Theology teachers. Defending of the faith was not supported and in fact scoffed at by teachers who taught secularism instead of doctrinal truth.

I find it particularly dangerous in sending young adults off to college with utterly incorrect formation pertaining to sexuality and recreational activities. It directly influences their choices and therefore imperils their soul when misinformation is taught as truth. Some examples: Masturbation is not grave matter, mutual masturbation and oral sex are permissable before marriage, smoking pot is not grave matter, getting drunk is not grave matter, using artificial birth control is not grave matter, abortion in the case of rape or incest is not grave matter etc. I could go into errors that were taught regarding Church history or the sacraments, but that is not nearly as damaging as morality being mistaught.

At some point, yes, of course we are all responsible for our own knowledge about the Church and what she teaches but it is certainly not a leap of logic to assume that a child is being taught correctly in a Catholic school environment. I sincerely hope that all of my classmates chose to go and double check the truth at critical moments in their life, but I find that highly doubtful.

In terms of whether or not to send a child to a nominally Catholic school, I do not see the point in funding any institution which undermines not only the real truth of the Church but possibly jeopardizes my children’s souls. Considering this is a topic that has been a major point of discussion and concern in our diocese for several years, I am definitely not the only one to share the worry of mis-Catechizing young teens. A new Catholic high school has just opened this year in our area and is rumored to be a special project of the diocese in restoring orthodoxy. I hope that in 14-15 years it is a solid place to considering sending my daughter, but I would not put her in any surrounding Catholic school at this time.

As for your comparison between theology and world history or physics, I would say that we do not often send a child to school for the mere fact that a school specializes in physics. :slight_smile: If we do, then we intend that child to be a wellspring of knowledge regarding the laws of physics. We do, on the other hand, send a child to Catholic school because he or she will benefit from learning their faith in a place which also affords them academic instruction. But if faith isn’t going to be properly imparted, then what is the point?

Again, if it is a mere matter of all the ‘bases’ concerning Catholic theology not being adequately covered, then that is one thing. My issue is solely with teaching misinformation about our faith to children whose parents are paying for a Catholic education.


#15

[quote=Princess_Abby]I hear what you’re saying, but I am not speaking about gaps in theological education. If that was the case, I’d have no problem whatsoever. I am speaking about blatantly wrong theological information imparted as truth. Specifically, classes that I was a part of and in which I still discuss amongst friends of mine who have since gone on to professionally participate in Catholic ministry, but were students in the same classes several years ago. (These three friends are an adult formation director at a parish, a high school theology teacher and a DRE–hence the reason they care enough to still talk about it every once in awhile, as they know from their own career choice how important it is to impart the truth to anyone they are entrusted t teach.) I vividly remember several situations, especially since one particular scandal opened up the entire can of worms and much of what was being taught finally came out to parents and administration. (A long story having to do with a lesbian religious sister openly talking to students (me included) about her sex life with a fellow sister.) We were absolutely misguided in certain aspects of our faith. At the time, I was already educated in our faith thanks to my parents and personal interest, but many of my classmates’ formation was directly dependent upon the information provided by Theology teachers. Defending of the faith was not supported and in fact scoffed at by teachers who taught secularism instead of doctrinal truth.

I find it particularly dangerous in sending young adults off to college with utterly incorrect formation pertaining to sexuality and recreational activities. It directly influences their choices and therefore imperils their soul when misinformation is taught as truth. Some examples: Masturbation is not grave matter, mutual masturbation and oral sex are permissable before marriage, smoking pot is not grave matter, getting drunk is not grave matter, using artificial birth control is not grave matter, abortion in the case of rape or incest is not grave matter etc. I could go into errors that were taught regarding Church history or the sacraments, but that is not nearly as damaging as morality being mistaught.

At some point, yes, of course we are all responsible for our own knowledge about the Church and what she teaches but it is certainly not a leap of logic to assume that a child is being taught correctly in a Catholic school environment. I sincerely hope that all of my classmates chose to go and double check the truth at critical moments in their life, but I find that highly doubtful.

In terms of whether or not to send a child to a nominally Catholic school, I do not see the point in funding any institution which undermines not only the real truth of the Church but possibly jeopardizes my children’s souls. Considering this is a topic that has been a major point of discussion and concern in our diocese for several years, I am definitely not the only one to share the worry of mis-Catechizing young teens. A new Catholic high school has just opened this year in our area and is rumored to be a special project of the diocese in restoring orthodoxy. I hope that in 14-15 years it is a solid place to considering sending my daughter, but I would not put her in any surrounding Catholic school at this time.

As for your comparison between theology and world history or physics, I would say that we do not often send a child to school for the mere fact that a school specializes in physics. :slight_smile: If we do, then we intend that child to be a wellspring of knowledge regarding the laws of physics. We do, on the other hand, send a child to Catholic school because he or she will benefit from learning their faith in a place which also affords them academic instruction. But if faith isn’t going to be properly imparted, then what is the point?

Again, if it is a mere matter of all the ‘bases’ concerning Catholic theology not being adequately covered, then that is one thing. My issue is solely with teaching misinformation about our faith to children whose parents are paying for a Catholic education.
[/quote]

Many baby boomers have been misguided by the theology of these teachers. I am glad my mother stuck to her guns. :slight_smile:


#16

Ask rather what tuition rate is prohibitive…and what is being offered at said rate.


#17

I would love to be able to send my children to Catholic schools, and we even did with our first son til he was in the second grade. My situation though is that we have 6 children who are very close in age. We cannot afford it anymore. It would cost us $8,000 in tuition to send them not to mention all the other costs that you are required to pay. While my son was going, on average we had to spend an additional 800 for books, clothing, classroom needs, etc.
I was extemely upset at having to take him out since I felt like since we have a larger than normal family we were in some way being drummed out by the prices.
We send them now to CCD and I teach them using the Baltimore Catechism at least twice a week. We also say the Rosary and when school work allows I take them to adoration with me.
I wish we could go back to the days where nuns were teaching, that would definately reduce prices and probably help with the poor state of catachesis that is being taught these days.


#18

I live in a very affluent area, so I believe the tuition rates here reflect that. Archdiocesan schools are around 4500 per year for K-8 and High School is 7000-8000 per year. Even with maximum financial aid available for our family, the cost is just not feasible for us.

I also agree with Princess Abby. Most of the Archdiocesan schools here are nominal, at best, in imparting the truths of the Catholic Faith. To get good Catholic Formation, one must go to independent Catholic Schools. The closest independent K-8 school is nearly 6500/yr, and that does not include books/uniforms, and the fundraisers. Very sad. We tried this school for as long as we could, and we are still trying to fight our way out of the debt we piled up to send our daughter there (the tuition was less than $4000/yr at that time).

I voted 1400/yr per good as a no brainer, but it would have to be a REAL Catholic school. I wouldn’t send my children to a nominal Catholic school, even if it was free.


#19

There should be a $0 tuition rate. It is the right of a baptised Catholic child to be educated in the faith. It is the responsibility of the community to do so. The whole parish should be involved in thithing and fundraising to make this happen.


#20

Actually I didn’t vote. What bugs me is that this diocese, St. Petersburg, spends so much on world relief etc. and little to nothing on basic Catholic parochial schools and leaves it up to struggling individual parishes to operate them. When you neglect your grass root operations your pulling the rug out from under yourself.


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