Ignorance and pride are worse when mixed together


#1

I'm shocked to see an incredible ignorance and confusion among some "Christian" groups who claim to "love" Catholics yet set up websites that are only promoting hatred and anger towards anything Catholic.

Has anyone seen the website by an ex-priest by last name Bennett? I understand that he has two sites dedicated to ministering to Catholics. One of these websites even carries the misleading title something like "What All Catholics Need to Know."

Normally, I would avoid giving publicity to these types of websites, but I'm wondering why there are people out there who seemingly mean well yet are really creating more division among Christians.


#2

[quote="malu2u, post:1, topic:272941"]
I'm shocked to see an incredible ignorance and confusion among some "Christian" groups who claim to "love" Catholics yet set up websites that are only promoting hatred and anger towards anything Catholic.

Has anyone seen the website by an ex-priest by last name Bennett? I understand that he has two sites dedicated to ministering to Catholics. One of these websites even carries the misleading title something like "What All Catholics Need to Know."

Normally, I would avoid giving publicity to these types of websites, but I'm wondering why there are people out there who seemingly mean well yet are really creating more division among Christians.

[/quote]

I had never heard of him until now, but listening to one of his Youtube videos, it is definitely his mission to destroy belief in the Catholic Church. So I guess he sees the Catholic laity as misled by the "Great Evil Catholic Church."

I pray that the Lord will lead him back.


#3

There is a long thread on CAF from some years back (Feb 2006)

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=97861

That said, it is always sad to learn of fallen Catholics, especially fallen priests. We pray that their faith be restored and they return to the Church!


#4

Right, we have talked about this many times. Super-information highway has provided some interesting twists interpreted as “Love Thy Neighbor”.

Peace


#5

I suspect that ignorance and pride are inseparable. One feeds on the other.

One is proud because one is ignorant of ones lack in knowledge of ones true state.

One remains ignorant because pride denies the need to learn more.


#6

Very well put! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


#7

[quote="malu2u, post:1, topic:272941"]
I'm shocked to see an incredible ignorance and confusion among some "Christian" groups who claim to "love" Catholics yet set up websites that are only promoting hatred and anger towards anything Catholic.

.... but I'm wondering why there are people out there who seemingly mean well yet are really creating more division among Christians.

[/quote]

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Catholics have labelled them incredibly ignorant and prideful....and feel the need to call them "Christian" as opposed to simply Christian. If you desire unity in love consider calling them full brethren and not separated brethren. Recognize their church as a church and not merely an ecclesiastical community. Until you have done those things some might think that, although you seem to mean well, your actions really create more divisions among Christians.


#8

[quote="Radical, post:7, topic:272941"]
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Catholics have labelled them incredibly ignorant and prideful....and feel the need to call them "Christian" as opposed to simply Christian. If you desire unity in love consider calling them full brethren and not separated brethren. Recognize their church as a church and not merely an ecclesiastical community. Until you have done those things some might think that, although you seem to mean well, your actions really create more divisions among Christians.

[/quote]

Indeed love and charity are two way streets. And some Catholics are indeed less forgiving than we are called to be. But honestly, that Catholics walk with targets on their backs is not new news and is not a very debatable point.

The anti-Catholic venom spewed on some of these sites is extraordinary. With Catholics routinely branded as heretics and apostates, those are the among the kinder words used. I was particularly fond of one poster who signed each and every dreadfully hateful post "in the Name of Jesus Christ" (Google that if you wish). I shall not mention the sites here, as the moderators normally do a good job of limiting the publicity afforded those sites here on CAF (and rightly so), but again a simple Google search provides an immediate listing of the worst offenders - pick any one.


#9

[quote="Radical, post:7, topic:272941"]
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Catholics have labelled them incredibly ignorant and prideful....and feel the need to call them "Christian" as opposed to simply Christian. If you desire unity in love consider calling them full brethren and not separated brethren. Recognize their church as a church and not merely an ecclesiastical community. Until you have done those things some might think that, although you seem to mean well, your actions really create more divisions among Christians.

[/quote]

I've never seen sites opposing Catholicism point to any of the grievances which you bring up as behind their efforts at "evangelizing" Catholics. If you have, please cite a few examples--I'm genuinely curious.

I would also argue that you are making an inapt analogy between the attitude of most Catholics and the mindset of the small minority of Protestants relevant to this discussion. Catholics don't set up organizations actively seeking to convert Protestants, but rather to explain their faith to all comers. Very many of the tracts on this site respond to common misconceptions and objections from Protestants that Catholics often find themselves forced to defend against. However, none of the tracts attack Protestant doctrine and practice in an uncharitable, caricaturing fashion. If you know of cases where such negativity and inaccuracy are rampant, please provide links to the CAF Library pages--I'm again genuinely curious.


#10

[quote="Joe_Kelley, post:5, topic:272941"]
I suspect that ignorance and pride are inseparable. One feeds on the other.

One is proud because one is ignorant of ones lack in knowledge of ones true state.

One remains ignorant because pride denies the need to learn more.

[/quote]

sums up my teens I fear. Thankfully I had a few people (including some on here) who helped me pull my head from my a**. Now I work on the idea "Better to remain silent and appear the fool then to open ones mouth and prove it true" :D


#11

[quote="Joe_Kelley, post:5, topic:272941"]
I suspect that ignorance and pride are inseparable. One feeds on the other.

One is proud because one is ignorant of ones lack in knowledge of ones true state.

One remains ignorant because pride denies the need to learn more.

[/quote]

Well said. Thank you for this insight. All we can do is make an attempt to instruct the ignorant but mostly just pray that through God's grace they shed their pride. :thumbsup:


#12

[quote="Radical, post:7, topic:272941"]
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Catholics have labelled them incredibly ignorant and prideful....and feel the need to call them "Christian" as opposed to simply Christian. If you desire unity in love consider calling them full brethren and not separated brethren. Recognize their church as a church and not merely an ecclesiastical community. Until you have done those things some might think that, although you seem to mean well, your actions really create more divisions among Christians.

[/quote]

I didn't mean to offend you by the quotation marks my friend. My intention is to say that they are so-called Christians yet don't have Christian love for others. Even though THEY-- (specifically those whom we are talking about) claim to love Catholics, it is not Christ's love that they are showing--it's venom intended to kill any good relationship between followers of Christ. Whether sites such as the one discussed intends to hurt the body of believers or not, the result is the same: Christians are not in communion with each other.

Whether one church has more truth than another or part of the truth or the whole truth is debatable. But, venom spewed in anger is not useful but destructive. This is the whole point of my question: why do we want to destroy those who share in the love for our Lord Jesus?


#13

[quote="malu2u, post:12, topic:272941"]
I didn't mean to offend you by the quotation marks my friend. My intention is to say that they are so-called Christians yet don't have Christian love for others. Even though THEY-- (specifically those whom we are talking about) claim to love Catholics, it is not Christ's love that they are showing--it's venom intended to kill any good relationship between followers of Christ. Whether sites such as the one discussed intends to hurt the body of believers or not, the result is the same: Christians are not in communion with each other.

Whether one church has more truth than another or part of the truth or the whole truth is debatable. But, venom spewed in anger is not useful but destructive. This is the whole point of my question: why do we want to destroy those who share in the love for our Lord Jesus?

[/quote]

Christians shouldn't want to destroy fellow Christians, and I don't see most Catholics conducting themselves in such a fashion as to be unkind toward Protestants and misrepresent their doctrine and practice.

Freedom of speech should be exercised in a mature, considerate manner. This way, Christians will understand each other better and, one hopes, come closer to the truth. We must not, however, despair that the deposit of faith has been lost within the past two thousand years.


#14

Amen!! I pray and hope that Christians will, in fact, one day understand and love each other.:thumbsup:


#15

[quote="ByzCathCantor, post:8, topic:272941"]
Indeed love and charity are two way streets.

[/quote]

that was my point

But honestly, that Catholics walk with targets on their backs is not new news and is not a very debatable point.

around my part of the globe Catholics enjoy legal benefits that aren't available to Protestants.

The anti-Catholic venom spewed on some of these sites is extraordinary.

no doubt...and I doubt that the OPoster will find a rational reason behind it

With Catholics routinely branded as heretics and apostates, those are the among the kinder words used.

whereas around these threads, that tends to be about the worst that a non-Catholic is called.


#16

[quote="Trebor135, post:9, topic:272941"]
I've never seen sites opposing Catholicism point to any of the grievances which you bring up as behind their efforts at "evangelizing" Catholics. If you have, please cite a few examples--I'm genuinely curious.

[/quote]

I don't have any.... I avoid those sites....one can easily obtain evidence and arguments to refute Catholic claims from the works of renowned scholars...looking at those sites would be a waste of time.

I would also argue that you are making an inapt analogy between the attitude of most Catholics and the mindset of the small minority of Protestants relevant to this discussion.

I didn't think that I was making any analogy...my point is simply that if you want an explanation as to why certain Protestants are very hostile to the CC, then start by looking at what the CC and Catholics have said and done wrt those Protestants...in this case one did not need to look past the OP in order to find something that one could be offensive... look a little further (elsewhere w/i Catholicism) and you'll find some more offensive stuff and there is always that tendency for escalation. Further, if one even looks at something such as "separated brethren", although "brethren" is conciliatory, "separated" can be easily seen as a slur.


#17

[quote="malu2u, post:12, topic:272941"]
I didn't mean to offend you by the quotation marks my friend.

[/quote]

no offense was taken....I just wanted to point out that a fellow with thin skin could easily be offended by what Catholics say and do.

.. it is not Christ's love that they are showing...

agreed it would be far better to heed Paul's advice and:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

...and it would be better still if they didn't view their brethren as enemies

This is the whole point of my question: why do we want to destroy those who share in the love for our Lord Jesus?

I believe that if you managed to confront one they would say:

  1. What I believe is truth

  2. What you believe is a false

  3. True love would require that I identify your false beliefs for you;

  4. ...and to do such bluntly and forcefully so as to get through that thick skull of yours.

I am not a fan of that approach....but it is not entirely uncommon among Christians Some Catholics here utilize that approach with respect to Protestants.


#18

[quote="Radical, post:17, topic:272941"]
no offense was taken....I just wanted to point out that a fellow with thin skin could easily be offended by what Catholics say and do.

agreed it would be far better to heed Paul's advice and:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

...and it would be better still if they didn't view their brethren as enemies

I believe that if you managed to confront one they would say:

  1. What I believe is truth

  2. What you believe is a false

  3. True love would require that I identify your false beliefs for you;

  4. ...and to do such bluntly and forcefully so as to get through that thick skull of yours.

I am not a fan of that approach....but it is not entirely uncommon among Christians Some Catholics here utilize that approach with respect to Protestants.

[/quote]

Can the same be said about your beliefs? That what I believe I believe to be the truth; therefore, I want to share it with you. But, the key is HOW we share the truth in love, and not how we TEAR down your beliefs just because I think that they are wrong. I happen to think that the full truth is stronger than beating you upside the head with identifying "your false beliefs for you" as you said.


#19

Also, I don't think that by saying "separated brethren" we mean to be offensive. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, yes; we just aren't living under the same roof, so, therefore, the term "separated" seems appropriate to me.


#20

I agree that ploughing through dispassionate academic treatments of any subject will be far more beneficial than reading fact-challenged polemical rants.

Who are these “renowned scholars” who you believe respond effectively to Catholicism?

I didn’t think that I was making any analogy…

My mistake; I chose the wrong word.

my point is simply that if you want an explanation as to why certain Protestants are very hostile to the CC, then start by looking at what the CC and Catholics have said and done wrt those Protestants…in this case one did not need to look past the OP in order to find something that one could be offensive… look a little further (elsewhere w/i Catholicism) and you’ll find some more offensive stuff and there is always that tendency for escalation. Further, if one even looks at something such as “separated brethren”, although “brethren” is conciliatory, “separated” can be easily seen as a slur.

My original point was that these sites never state their reasons for hostility to be any of the factors you suggest here. What you argue could be perceived as offensive does not actually appear to be touching off the negativity toward Catholics found among nearly all who deny their Christian status. The analysis which you propose for the extreme hostility emanating from a small minority of Protestants, therefore, has no explanatory power.


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