Ignoring protestant material etc


#1

Although I say protestant, I mean all Christians (non denoms, etc). It’s been my practice for some time now of wondering why anyone would bother with anything protestant. Let me give some examples:

1.) Protestant songs like amazing grace, away in a manger, some quaker hymn (How can I keep from singing). They sing these at Mass sometimes. My grandma told me they used to not be allowed at one time.

2.) Protestant speakers who are “experts”. Even ones respected by Catholics that I respect.

3.) Protestant “work ethic”, puritan values, etc

Basically, when I hear these things I just walk away or start ignoring. My reasoning is as follows:

1.) Why should we sing protestant songs, regardless of how catchy they are, if they were first written to drive a heresy home. Also, why should we bother with them when there are literally hundreds of Catholic songs written more beautifully with much more Catholic teachings that we never sing at Mass?

2.) Why should I bother with a speaker when he is dealing with half a deck? A Catholic priest, even if less educated has infinitely more than any protestant could ever offer me. The EUcharist, the sacraments and the mark left on his sould by God. Even if the speaker says some things that are doctrinally ok, why bother?

3.) Protestant ideals have led to increased secularism (the work ethic) and puritan values have opened the door to the rebellion in our approach to our human person and sexuality.

One point on clarification. I’m not saying “don’t bother with these people”. I’m not making any judgements on their souls. I don’t hate them, I don’t even dislike. It’s more a, why would I even waste my time with something lesser than I have?

I’m very interested and open to people’s opinions on my attitude as I know there must be a more refined way of approaching it. Thanks guys.

No…I’m not PC at all.


#2

I would probably agree with much of what you say. One thing I hope people would be more aware of is the shaping of our culture and way of life in America by Protestantism (particularly since we were founded by Protestants). One publisher that deals with primarily the economic (and also some of the social) effects of the Reformation is IHS Press. One book I’ve been reading which is good on this subject is:

[size=2][size=2][size=2][size=3]An Essay on the Economic Effects of the Reformation[/size][/size][/size]
by George O’Brien

ihspress.com/whatsnew.htm#obrien
[/size]


#3

I will definitely check that book out. I’m a big fan of Helloc as he very often touches on the implications of the reformation. Thanks for the input.


#4

Yea, pretty much every book published by them is good.


#5

. It’s more a, why would I even waste my time with something lesser than I have?

I’m no help
Makes sense to me
I don’t see anything wrong :eek:


#6

Clarification

why would I even waste my time

the ‘waste’ of time has more to do with my own opportunity costs than what the protestant has to offer.
:slight_smile:
Time is valuable; use it wisely, type of thing
:slight_smile:


#7

I understand your points. But we have very different personalities i guess; I’m naturally argumentative, and whenever I hear something that you might ignore, i tend to go in for the fight (metaphorically speaking). I’ve been working on turning this into a more positive thing, so now i attend a weekly protestant bible study, where I have found that they are very polite and willing to listen to me explain the Catholic faith. I don’t expect any rapid conversions, but hopefully every bit of understanding is good.

Another good thing to do is “church trading.” Last weekend I went to my best friend’s Southern Baptist church in the morning, and then took him into D.C. to the National Shrine for the solemn mass at noon.

In the long run, I would usually choose not to ignore them, most of the time, unless its at the point where nothing i say would really make any bit of difference at all.

  • Andrew

P.S. I love lots of Christmas songs that were written by Protestants, and i absolutely refuse to ignore those :rolleyes:


#8

I agree that it is not beneficial to encourage or support anything based upon a heretical belief system. Yet just because something is Protestant doesn’t mean it is evil, just the belief system is evil, not the people or some of their actions, many non-catholics do very many good things.
I know you know that, I have to say that also because of my response which is as follows.

The the denial of the Immaculate Conception is firmly rooted in rejecting the deity of Christ and based upon a desire to embrace evil as acceptable. The same can be said about any rejection of Catholicism in any way, it is based purely upon sin. This is not to say that Catholics are not sinful either, but that rejection of Catholicism is always based upon sin and an advocation of God as a source of evil.

That being said we embrace our separated brothers and sisters as they are just that our separated brothers and sisters who very well may be on their way to Christ and continually coming closer to Christ.

The reason we can accept some parts or fruits of non-catholics is because the truth they hold would be affirmed by Catholics. If a Protestant affirms that we should put Christ first, I can agree and use this to invite him to pray the Lords prayer with me, etc.
I can listen to a Protestant expert give tips on memorizing the Bible as we all should be more familiar with the Bible. I can embrace a song such as away in a manger regardless of its source as it affirms Catholic teaching. (Amazing Grace is another story)

Just because my baker may be a Muslim doesn’t make his bread bad, I can share the loaf and enjoy the taste, as good food is part of Catholicism. Everything good is part of Catholicism and can be enjoyed and shared.

God Bless
Scylla


#9

I agree to some extent. However, Protestantism has quite a bit of truth.

And some of the best English Christmas hymns were written by English Protestants. Anglicans, Methodists … probably not much if anything from the Presbyterians, though.

I generally don’t like regular Protestant church music though, too much like jingles and secular music. Same as with much Catholic music lately. (Got “jingles” “secular” from watching EWTN recently.)


#10

95% of what you are talking about (songs, famous prot. theologians, and values) agrees with Catholic theology.

Usually a protestant (generalization) will not speak contrary to Catholic belief unless they are 1) debating with a Catholic or 2) comparing and contrasting doctrines one by one.

In other words, I find protestants are just as ‘gung-ho’ about Jesus Christ and his saving sacrifice as Catholics. Catholics just have a better avenue of expression (Eucharist).

I am not saying that we are really all the same, I am just saying in common conversation to, say, a non-Christian, a Catholic and a Protestant will say a lot of the same stuff about Jesus Christ.

Amazing Grace is not contrary to Catholic doctrine, so why not sing it?

I’m getting a little bit of a superiority vibe from you, when I seriously doubt that is the appropriate Christian response to a protestant. You act like they have had full knowledge that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ, and have then rejected it. Most protestants (me included before 2 years ago) haven’t known anything else except protestantism.

So a superior attitude is not, in my opinion, the way to go.

Afterall, Billy Graham said of John Paul II after he died that (JPII was)“unquestionably the most influential voice for morality and peace in the world during the last 100 years”. That is Protestant to Catholic, in other words, theologically different, but respect none-the-less. It sounds like you think you have nothing to do with Protestants, like they don’t affect you, and you have no responsibility toward them. Nah, my friend, quite the opposite.

We are on the same team here.


#11

Much of this is easy to assert, & impossible to prove. More than that, there are some Protestants who say just the same kinds of things about us.

Why indeed "should [they] bother with something lesser than [they] have ? But this amounts to saying that there are two Christs - that there is no communion in Christ at all. This is not true. In Luke 10, the Samaritan helped the wounded traveller - yet Samaritans were regarded as lower beings even then Christians regard other Christians. That surely tells us something about our own dealingswith others.

This game is played by one lot only - they are our brethren in Christ, so that they & we are members of one another. Surely that is more than enough reason to be interested in them, & to seek their good.


#12

I do too! “Hark, the Herald Angels Sing”, “Joy to the World” and “O Little Town of Bethlehem” are my favourites. I also love quite a few other hymns written by Charles Wesley, such as “Jesus Christ Is Risen Today”, “Hail the Day That Sees Him Rise”, and “Lo, He Comes with Clouds Descending”.


#13

Having an attitude which is so dismissive of other people’s faith does nothing to encourage them to be open to the truths of the Catholic faith.

One might consider such an attitude to be incompatible with Christian charity, or an example of the sin of pride…


#14

I used to very much have an attitude of accept what is favourable, reject what is not. I try to still have that attitude, but find myself crystalising towards a position which some could describe as insularism. It’s not to denigrate other people’s faiths, but particularly with the origins of protestantism, I just find it hard to listen because they’re basing their position on error. :shrug:


#15

The Church possesses fulsome truth not through the merits of Catholics but through the mandate of Christ. Theologically, Protestantism is a desert. Whatever Protestants believe these days (witness all the threads on this forum indicating there may be no such thing as “Protestant belief” any longer), their theology is nothing but a shadow of true Christianity. It cannot be otherwise.

Protestant liturgy likewise affords nothing but shadows of the true Mass.

In related fields, however, there is much in Protestantism which is indeed valuable. I would hate to lose C.S. Lewis or J.S. Bach or Rembrandt. Since none of these presume to reject true Christianity in their work, I don’t have to lose them.


#16
  1. Because truth is truth. Anything true is so because it is of God. When anybody says something true, it is true, regardless of whether it is all of the truth, only part of the truth, or truth slanted. We owe it to Truth to recognize Him in any disguise. If it is truth slanted or distorted, we owe it to Him to identify the distortion in order to straighten out His image.

  2. Because we are commanded to be leaven, salt and light to the world, in imitation of Our Lord. The world includes anybody who is in darkness compared to one’s own comparative state of lightness. Notice “comparative”: compared to the state of light enjoyed by the saints in heaven, even the most enlightened of us is in darkness himself. Perspective helps us open ourselves up more, so as to be crystals, letting Christ’s pure light shine straight through us to others less enlightened.

  3. As to Amazine Grace, a pet peeve of mine:

[quote=IsaacSheen]Protestant songs like amazing grace… My grandma told me they used to not be allowed at one time.
[/quote]

[quote=Scylla]I can embrace a song such as away in a manger regardless of its source as it affirms Catholic teaching. (Amazing Grace is another story.
[/quote]

[quote=cascherman]Amazing Grace is not contrary to Catholic doctrine, so why not sing it?
[/quote]

Amazing Grace is sung by Catholics who are not carefully listening to the words. It is sentimental, sounds good, is singable, and I guess a lot of Catholics enjoy being able to just sing along with other Christians.

But, please notice the words: “Amazing Grace (which I received) the hour I first believed.” What hour was that, exactly??? Because I, personally, received amazing sanctifying grace the hour I was baptized at a few weeks after birth. I could not strictly be said to have believed anything, let alone in Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour.

You can heavily filter the words to admit the meaning: “the Hour I first believed and was baptized if I had an adult conversion; or the Hour my parents pledged their belief for me giving me my faith in advance of my own ability to embrace it but providing it nonetheless so that I could be baptized and given the grace to grow in that faith and one day be able to begin to understand what I already lived and then the “Hour” of my life itself as I was able to believe it more and more and extinguish more and more any unbelief I might have, with the help of grace I receive lifelong through the sacraments of the Church, until one day there will be an “Hour” when I die in graced belief–that is Amazing Grace, and that’s the “Hour” it refers to.”

For Protestants–those who hold to *sola scriptura *and Once Saved Always Saved, this song works without any mental reservations or patchwork.

That’s why it’s not a Catholic song, and indeed advances a really bad heresy, the one upon which the “Reformation” was founded.

So we can’t ignore Protestant material, because it obscures and diverts people from Truth Himself, no more than we can see a trainwreck preparing without trying to stop it.


#17

“Amazing Grace” was written following the author’s adult conversion. Before he wrote it, he was a slave trader. I don’t think it was intended to show doctrine, but rather to express his experience and praise God in accordance with that. I’m sure there are many people who can relate very well to the song.

I don’t think most Protestant hymns were written to drive heresies home, though I haven’t analyzed them all in regards to doctrine, either. As for Catholics having their own music: I know you do, because I have sung some of it – in non-Catholic churches. I’ve never heard any of it at Catholic churches! Why isn’t it more widely used?


#18

Conversion to errant protestantism? see analysis of the words of the song in post above.

[quote=HL]I don’t think it was intended to show doctrine
[/quote]

with respect, HL, whatever the author’s intention, the words DO express a doctrine, the doctrine upon which the Reformation was based, a new doctrine which contradicts both scripture itself and all Christian teaching for the first 1,500 years of Christianity.

[quote=HL]but rather to express his (the hymn writer’s) experience
[/quote]

since there is no true experience of grace other than the Catholic understanding of that experience, his expression is mistaken.

[quote=HL]and praise God in accordance with that. I’m sure there are many people who can relate very well to the song.
[/quote]

Respectfully, God can’t be praised with falsehood, HL, because He is Truth. And when people relate very well to the song, they relate less well to Him who is Truth.

[quote=HL]I don’t think most Protestant hymns were written to drive heresies home,
[/quote]

The motives of the hymn writers are beside the point, HL–it is just what the words say. The logic of Amazing Grace can be followed–the text is clear and speaks for itself. I do the hymn-writer the honor of taking his words seriously–and what they say is wrong, however sincere his feelings at the time, and however sincere the feelings of those who sing it.

The words express the Protestant notion of salvation, which Catholics understand to be contrary to God’s notion of salvation.


#19

Since 90% of what Protestants believe is absolutely in conformity with Catholic teaching there is no reason NOT to sing a hymn merely on the grounds that it was written by a Protestant. In fact, when it comes to “Catholic” music being produced today, often with abysmal music and questionable theology, I would prefer a musically excellent and theologically strong “Protestant” hymn any day. Rejecting something because of its origin is the “genetic fallacy.”

As for resources coming from the non-Catholic world, I would be the last person on earth to dismiss something like Jim Dobson’s Focus on the Family. I WISH we Catholics had something as good. Dobson’s group has worked strongly and well with Fr. Frank Pavone on pro-life matters. We do not need to dismiss these groups. We, as Christians, have enough problems in COMMON with the secularized culture that we should work together under the Name rather than dismissing one another.


#20

You must mean Palestrina, de Pres, Correlli, Mozart, Beethoven . . . Heck, I’ve heard it said that one of the most “Catholic” of the nouveau church music writers (is it Haugen or Haas) is – for Pete’s SAKE! – a Protestant.


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