I'm going out on a limb here

I’ve had a friend who found the Catholic church and then decided to leave because he didn’t like what the Pope was doing. The Pope isn’t our God in our church. Look at the sale of indulgences, Martin Luther didn’t like that, but that doesn’t mean you have to leave and start your own religion. It’s called the power of prayer. We are all called to pray for those who lead us in the church, not rebel because we don’t like something they said or did. It just frustrates me sometimes…

I know this is just theorizing here… But for the record, doesn’t the Catholic Church officially deny ever approving the “sale of indulgences”? Sure, there have been “rogue” Catholic people of authority who did mislead people in offering indulgences to those who would financially contribute, hence “purchase” an indulgence. The Church is made up of sinners, even its Leaders. I suppose this is a topic for another thread and has probably been talked about already. Just wanted to throw a disclaimer in here.

I’m not sure it was Martin Luther’s intention to start his own religion. I think he thought he found flaws in Church doctrine/teaching and wanted to bring it forward and found difficulty in confronting the Church. But I’m no Martin Luther expert, so I’ll stop there.

Indeed he did not want to break off and start another church, he wanted to REFORM the catholic church.

I see what you did there :wink:

I’m not even Christian so I don’t have a horse in this race - don’t mistake me.

But there is considerable debate, not about what church Christ founded. But what constitutes that church. And that’s just Protestantism. The Orthodox will have their own worries.


Indeed – but went way too far. Threw out the baby with the bathwater.

He was correct on indulgences as they should never be for sale – cant buy God’s grace. I would have been upset too, had I seen what his eyes saw.

That said, he just assumes Sola Scriptura is a thing because he said so, then proceeds to trash 7 books from the canon and anything else not clearly defined for him in scripture.

Cardinal Newman, after he converted. Apologia pro vita Sua, if I remember correctly.


Did you make it to a Mass. I did not, but ran into the local parish and prayed for a few minutes.

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I wish I had, but it didn’t work out as I had to take my son to the train station. But the Feast was on my mind all day.

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I didn’t ignore it. Protestants believe that there is one kingdom too. We just don’t always agree with the Catholic Church’s definition of it. I was responding to the triumphalist tone of your original comment in which you certainly seemed to imply that the passage was speaking of Catholic priests rather than simply the priesthood of all believers.


How do you judge “believing”? Jesus did say that all who believe in Him are His. But many who called out to Him, He rejected.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I am going to say you judge believing by the love factor.


It was a trick question. :innocent:

God is our judge. He judges faith, works and love. There are people who claim to love God, but their actions speak otherwise. God alone judges their heart.

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Love God and your neighbor as yourself. All the law and prophets hang on these commandments. Without love, we are nothing.

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Who judges whether you have loved God and your neighbor as yourself?
Who judges whether you have kept the Commandments with love?

A very good way to see that saying that one loves God is not enough is by looking at a marriage. A man or woman who has an affair, has proclaimed their love for the other in holy matrimony. Yet, they have had an affair.

Claiming to love God is not enough.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

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And the first and greatest commandment is to love God with all our being. We can only do that by having no other gods before him. Even the Church can be a god.

Even if that were true, God is the judge.

Why don’t you answer my questions?

Who judges whether you have loved God and your neighbor as yourself?
Who judges whether you have kept the Commandments with love?
Let me add another.

Who judges whether you are loving the Church more than God?
Or your own assumptions more than God?

I did not mean to not answer your questions. You answered them in your first post before you asked the questions and I thought we were in agreement.

I am seeing a blue note that I have never seen before on this page asking if anybody else can be involved in this discussion. Where does that come from?

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