Imagine Pentecost happened today...

Friends,

Imagine you’re an average citizen walking in your own capital city. A criminal whose name is known to you was recently executed for many reasons, including sedition. You have heard of strange events and miraculous healing associated with him, but never saw these yourself.

As you pass by a large home, a man comes out surrounded by about 100 people, and says that the criminal who died by lethal injection - or electrocution, or hanging - opened His own mortuary and walked out very much alive, and even transformed. You see no signs, miracles, or wondrous things. You do not even see the criminal himself. You only hear this claim about him.

There are no books about him, no public culture built up around him, and no developed idea of what has really occurred. All you know is that this group of about 100 people claim to have started to see him again, beginning more than two months ago. They waited all this time to say anything. How do you react, in all honesty?

I ask these questions because when I personally consider the resurrection-claims, it all comes down to the credibility of the Apostles.

Empty Tombs, Swoon Theories, and other arguments are just sophistry in the end. Can you put yourself in the sandals of a random person standing before Peter on Pentecost? Any claims of miracles are just claims, as much as the claims of resurrection. What on Earth would make me believe this Peter?

I conclude that - without any concept of Faith - it would have to be based entirely on seeing miracles and hearing men speaking in tongues. I myself never witness the blind seeing, or the lame walking. I never see this resurrected one, who ascended to heaven several days before. I see what looks like bread, wine, oil, water… but nothing more.

What is the deepest depth to which we can go in order to find a good apologetic for the Resurrection? It must be human, and real, and alive - not mere philosophy, no?

Latin historians talk of Jesus-he WAS a historical person. And we cant find his body. SO, if he was a real person, where is it? Oh, look, a few thousand people have accurate answers to that…hmm…worth considering methinks.

Notice that this is not the context of Pentecost Sunday! This festival was one of the festivals for which the Jews flocked to Jerusalem. So, it’s bursting at the seams, with Jews from all over (not just from Jerusalem or Galilee)!

You have heard of strange events and miraculous healing associated with him, but never saw these yourself.

Of course not. You’re from out of town, so this is all just the buzz of the town to you…!

You see no signs, miracles, or wondrous things. You do not even see the criminal himself. You only hear this claim about him.

All you know is that this group of about 100 people claim to have started to see him again, beginning more than two months ago. They waited all this time to say anything. How do you react, in all honesty?

At that moment, just hearing the words of Peter? Very likely, in the same way that the people in the streets reacted: “what? this early in the morning, and ya’ll are already ripping drunk?” :wink:

Later, though, hearing others’ testimony… well, that’d be a different story, don’t you think?

You know what, though? How do you know that the people who were baptized were folks who had never seen Jesus during his ministry? What if many of the 3000 were ones who had experienced Jesus personally in the preceding three years?

Moreover, you’re missing part of the narrative of Acts 2: The apostles are standing up, preaching, and people with all sorts of native languages understand what they’re saying. That wouldn’t catch your attention, if a group of common-looking folks stood up and spoke, and native speakers of English, French, Spanish, Japanese, and Chinese all understood what was being said?

I’d pull a Doubting Thomas but this time, I do it proudly.

There! I said it! :stuck_out_tongue:

So you dont believe the Resurrection?

Nice try but please know that I only answer trick questions with my tongue stabbing at my cheek. :wink:

Its not a “trick” its a yes or no.

I know your no the most orthodox person, so I wanted to know. Do you believe in the Resurrection or not?

Should be pretty simple to answer “yes” or “no”.

You do realize that false dichotomies coupled with twisted simplification are the hallmarks of trick/loaded questions right?

The population of Jerusalem in 33 AD was less than 50k. Have you ever lived in a small town with only 50 thousand people? I have and, believe me, everyone knows everything about everyone else. You don’t think that everyone in a town of 50 thousand people was unaware of the very public events?

Wow. Amazing. Why can you not answer the question. This has no trick, or ANYTHING deceiving. You are so immature to not just answer. The real answer is quite obvious, as your hiding it.

I asked a simple question, yes or no.

You have heard of the Resurrection theory of Jesus Christ, taken place 2000 years ago in Ancient Judea in the Roman Empire…right?

Now, do you think this story is true, or made up?

ialsop, I appreciate your argumentation. The body would have been in the Holy Sepulchre, which has been layered over with many superstructures and churches since 33 AD. Presumably if the body had remained there it would’ve been spirited away quickly.

We all know that if the Apostles’ testimony is true, and they died for it, then there is less likelihood that the Resurrection is a myth.

How sure are we of the Apostles’ existence outside the New Testament, in non-Christian accounts of the 200s and 300s AD? With the exception of Paul, they don’t really talk about themselves much in the Bible, either. If the Tradition didn’t say that they were all martyrs, would you still believe their resurrection story? What is true credibility, anyway?

Well, we actually DO have their bodies. Such as the bodies of the very first popes, and more.

Ah, but there WAS a miraculous sign:

All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”[Acts 2:4-12]

It’s the Star Trek Universal Translator. A guy speaks to a linguistically diverse crowd and they understand him. Had they all spoken Aramaic then they would not have realized anything miraculous was going on.

(This is the legitimate practice of speaking in known tongues, not that “unknown lounges” nonsense that goes on in Charismatic churches).

However, not all were disposed to perceive this miracle (by the hardness of their hearts):

Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”[v.13]

People still come from all over the world to Jerusalem. If something happened such as this in modern times it would be the lead story in the news and all over YouTube.

(hmmm - I wonder what language a recording would be in?)

How do we know those are truly* their *bodies? I believe both the Orthodox and the Catholics claim to have the head (or was it the right hand?) of St. John the Baptist.

You ask a loaded question and expect to style yourself more mature than me? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Wow, so much for humility (and honesty).

Come on kid, I know what you want me to say and I’m not saying it. Your tone doesn’t merit that satisfaction. :wink:

Yes, I’ve heard. That has nothing to do with with an attempted imposition/reenactment in a completely different setting that is the average day in the 21st century.

Frankly, I answered the question in the most honest way I can. I’m a proud Doubting Thomas and I’ve suffered less from my increased control over what I believe in. Whether or not I believe in the actual Resurrection is irrelevant because the OP is initially posing a hypothetical scenario that is an entirely different subject. Related sure, but really, what can you expect from a hypothetical?

Oh but, feel free to hijack it and start asking confrontational, loaded questions followed-up with personal attacks.

Well, that was nice while it lasted…

If you ask me, I’d be more convinced if the guy himself showed up suddenly just as I closed the video and made a miracle I’ve long wanted in my life.

Because seriously, isn’t that always the narrative of real miracle workers? The people they’ve touched are so sure of their experience, you can’t convince them of anything contrary. It helped them. Christ helped them. Would it matter if their experience was recorded in history? Not always really. They’re just happy enough to say that it happened to them.

There comes a point when you just have to take a distant point of history at face value because books, scrolls, and the accounts of long-dead historians are the only evidence remaining of such an era.

But if you were to say, suppose the exact thing happening now, through the raw, vibrant experience of the present moment, how many of us would like the whole world to remember? If you ask me, I wouldn’t really give it much thought. I’d be too preoccupied just living and standing in the presence of the miracle that I’ve confirmed through my own experience. That would be enough for me. I don’t care for convincing anyone else or how selfish I sound. The fact of the matter is that many people are asking for this sort of thing every day and they don’t always tell the world when it finally happens because they’re too happy with the gift to really care.

Hasn’t it been said that Jesus performed many other miracles that were not mentioned in the Bible? Did the people really care whether or not those miracles will be mentioned or would they just be happy to have healing in their life?

I for one am just the same. Looking for healing in my life and ready test anything and everything that works and that doesn’t. That includes any situation that tries to re-enact Pentecost in the modern day. If that makes me a Doubting Thomas, then y’all can call me Tommy! :thumbsup:

Hijack? hehe…nope. While I was having a nice convo with the OP about the resurrection evidence, you are whining about loaded questions. Lol…

Hmm…an interesting point. Also, I will say that the manuscripts of thwe NT were around since about the time the Church claims they were written, the same times the bodies date to, and some of the bodies reflect the martyrdom stories.

For example, body of Peter has no feet, as those crucified upside down have their feet cut off.

I apologize if this thread has scandalized anyone or caused feuds between Christians. I think my questions are not legitimate enough to merit a continuing discussion here. :slight_smile:

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