Immaculate Conception--necessary?


#1

I’ve heard it said that it was fitting that Mary be born Immaculate and Free from sin but that it wasn’t altogether necessary.

I don’t believe that. I think that more than just being the “fitted” thing for Jesus that it was necessary.

Is it OK to be Catholic and believe that way?

The reason I believe that to be the case is that I believe that the combination of Immaculate Conception of Mary plus the Virgin birth of Jesus was the ONLY way that Jesus could not only have no predisposition towards sin that He would inherrit from Mary if that was not the case

But

also the only way that along with that non predisposition towards sin ALSO being able to assume the limitations of humanity like having to work that Mary also had as a product of both of her parents.

If God created a humanity for Jesus apart from Mary’s humanity as the Protestants would maintain so it would be free from disposition towards sin then Jesus is not one of us.

On the other hand if God DIRECTLY created Jesus’ humanity which would include a need to work he would be UNJUST because Jesus had done nothing to deserve to HAVE TO WORK like all of us since Adam and Eve and also Mary had to do.

Only with the Immaculate Conception of Mary can BOTH things be accomplished:

No Predisposition towards sin but ALSO a humanity that was fallen but without sin.

The reason Jesus could assume a fallen humanity without sin is because God would not be unjustly DIRECTLY creating it for Jesus–Jesus would be CHOOSING to assume it from his mother Mary–in other words he would be assuming that humanity not DIRECTLY from God but INDIRECTLY from Mary!

That way Jesus could be free from concupiscence and tendency towards sin–while still experiencing the falleness that we experience such as having to work.

I think that the immaculate conception of mary plus the Virginal birth of Jesus is the ONLY way that BOTH things could be accomplished and that that combination is more than just fitting–it was the supreme perfect will of god and was necessary for God to create Jesus’ humanity with violating his perfect Justice.

My question is could I be right on that? My second question is is it permissable for a Catholic to believe that both were more than just fitting that they were indeed necessary?


#2

The immaculate conception was not necessary, Just true.

If God had made it so that Mary would have not been sinless, thats fine, He could have done that. Did He? No.

God has total reign over His creation, He can do anything.


#3

God cannot make a humanity for Jesus directly apart from Mary that is fallen in anyway for that would be unjust and would require God to create something that is not good which God cannot do because that is not His nature.

Jesus’ humanity must come from Mary.

Since it must–Mary has to be sinless.

And the only way for Mary to be BOTH sinless and have a fallen attribute like having to work without also having a tendency to sin is by her Immaculate Conception.

So therefore the Immaculate Conception is necessary!


#4

Jerry, All things are possible with God. Why then does Mary HAVE to be sinless.

I agree that she is sinless and love all the teachings on Mary, but I can’t go so far as to say this is the only way it could have happened.


#5

Without necessarily agreeing with your reasons for the doctrine’s ‘necessity,’ I can at least agree with this: The doctrine is true, because it is divinely by Christ to his Church. Because it is true, it is the way God wanted it. If God wanted it that way, then it is necessary!


#6

The problem with this argument, is that, logically, you have to keep going further and further back.

If it was necessary that Mary be conceived without sin in order for Jesus to have no tendency to sin, then wouldn’t it have also been necessary for Mary’s mother (St. Anne) to be sinless in order for Mary to have no tendency to sin?

And if necessary for Mary and St. Ann, then wouldn’t it be necessary for St. Ann’s mother, and her mother, etc.?

If taken to its logical conclusion, then you end up back in Eden with it being necessary that Eve lived a sinless life, thereby denying that Original Sin exists at all!

I suppose you could believe this if you wanted to, but I would never use this argument in trying to explain the Immaculate Conception to a Protestant. It would only increase their misunderstanding of the Church’s teaching on Mary.


#7

Maybe a better argument would be this: It was necessary that the Son of God became incarnate as man in the most perfect way possible.

The most perfect way possible required Mary to be sinless–sinlessness joined to sinlessness.

If Jesus was joined to and born to an original sin infested totally depraved Mary with all her sin filtered out–would Jesus have actually joined WITH man?

How would Jesus be a savior to Post Fall man by being joined to Pre-fall man?

The Immaculate Conception provides for Jesus to be joied with BOTH pre-fall and post-fall man.

If Jesus is THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE wouldn’t His incarnation come about in THE most perfect way?

THE most perfect way would not admit to OTHER ways.

Sinless God coming from Sinful man is not perfect.

Maybe the necessity of the Immaculate Conception cannot be proved but I personaly believe it to be so,

Is that OK? Is that permissable for a Catholic to believe?

Has the Catholic Church ever defintively and dogmatically as doctrine ever taught that the Immaculate Conception was not necessary or is it silent on the issue?


#8

Jerry,

I like the way you think. Even if I disagree with some of your conclusions. :wink: * Some* of your conclusions. The catechism tells us that “faith seeks understanding”. Your OP here is a very clear demonstration of faith and I want to commend you on that and on your search for greater understanding.

Truth is multifaceted and multi-dimensional. All too often we get caught up in whether “A or B” is right, whether we should OR shouldn’t do something, etc. when, in fact, the best answer is more complex than that.

With this as a preface, I want to answer your question in two different “directions”. Firstly, it was not “necessary” for Mary to be sinless in order for Jesus to be sinless as well. As someone else has already noted, if this were the case, then it would also have been necessary for Ann and Joachim to be sinless so that Mary could be, etc. Further, I would submit to you that the very nature of the Incarnation is such that it automatically and innately excludes a sinful nature outright. Jesus needed no “help” from Mary or anyone else to accomplish this.

You asked a question: “If Jesus was joined to and born to an original sin infested totally depraved Mary with all her sin filtered out–would Jesus have actually joined WITH man?”

The short answer to this is, “Yes.”

You went on, “How would Jesus be a savior to Post Fall man by being joined to Pre-fall man?” The answer is that it would have happened very simply by virtue of Jesus taking on human nature, as he did. The essential difference between “pre fall man” and “post fall man” is only in the absence of grace. Pre fall and post fall man were not two “completely different creatures”.

In fact, your very question actually seems to deny that which you seek to defend. In a manner of speaking, Mary, in her Immaculate Conception, was comparable with pre-fall man in that both they and she were completely without the stain of sin. Because of the Immaculate Conception, how can Jesus be a savior to post fall man, I might ask you, based on your question?

And so the answer to your question, “Was the Immaculate Conception ‘necessary’ for Jesus to be who he was, or to do what he did?”, I believe is a clear no.

HOWEVER.

Looking at the question from the opposite direction

The question “Was the Immaculate Conception necessary?”, I believe, bears an affirmative answer when one looks at the question in “reverse”. Mary was the “first fruits” of Jesus’ redemptive work. The “new creation par excellence”, if you will. Because of that symbolic witness, it was necessary for her to be completely sanctified. How could she be anything but completely untouched by sin if she were the prototype of the Church triumphant, the new Jerusalem?

As the “new Eve”, some might suggest that her title would be more fully manifest if she had been subject to sin and then subsequently overcome it through conversion. I myself happen to think that the only way to overcome sin and give a perfect yes to God, post fall, is literally by being God (in the flesh). Which is to say that the only way for Mary to have accomplished her mystical mission was by being preserved from the stain of sin in the first place.

So, no, the Immaculate Conception was not necessary for* Jesus* (Mary -----> Jesus). It was, however, in my opinion for Mary and the rest of the Church. (Mary <------ Jesus).

Hope that helps?

SK


#9

The Immaculate Conception is necessary simply because the catholic church thinks its necessary.
part 1:thumbsup:
If the Bible is your sole authority, then more than likely you will reject the Blessed Mary as the Immaculate Conception, even though the proof can be found in the bible; if the Catholic Apostolic Church is your authority then you will wholeheartedly embrace the I.C. doctrine. The question to who has this authority is contained within the pages of the New Testament.
If protestants embrace their bible as their sole authority and use it to try and disprove Marys immaculate conception, they unwittingly concede the catholic church as the sole authority on matters of faith and morals, because the bible is a product of the C.C. The catholic church and that church alone codified the bible! protestants put all your trust in the catholic church when they accept and cherish their bible with out any doubts or reservations. Think about it; if the C.C. was wrong on matters such as the immaculate conception, then they could have certainly been wrong regarding the selection, accuracy and infallibility of the codified bible. Under the protestant premise that the Catholic Church is not the church founded by Jesus Christ, the bible becomes nothing more than a fallible book(s) written by mere humans.
However this is a false premise for the bible plainly says that the Apostolic Church (not the bible) is the sole authority on matters of faith and morals. Using the bible as your ultimate benchmark, E.G. rejecting the veracity of the Immaculate Conception, betrays what the bible truly says regarding authority and who should wield it. No where in the bible does it say who wrote it; the table of contents was set in place by the Catholic church. The bible does not define the 46 books of the old or the 27 books of the new, as infallible; it simply makes a general, sweeping statement that “all scripture is inspired,” which for all practical purposes has to include the apocryphal books as well. Even if the bible said, the 27 books that make up the New Testament, each and everyone of them, are the inspired word(s) of God, I still wouldn’t trust it! Anybody can put something together and stamp it with the title of infallibility, E.G. the Qur’an. For me to believe that something is from God, I’ll need God to tell me so or find the people that God did tell; it’s just that simple! Who or whom was Jesus’ chosen vessel(s)?—Peter and the rest of the Apostles, including Paul, and they built apostolic churches as per Jesus’ instruction (Matthew 16:18) and through the laying on of hands, selected disciples to hand down what was taught to them by word of mouth

via these apostolic churches. (Sola scriptura, the bible alone) would have been just another heresy for the apostolic church to contend with, if in fact the codified bible even existed, which of course it didn’t. How am I to know that, for example, the book of James, the same book Martin Luther wanted to jettison, is indeed inspired? The bible certainly doesn’t help me in my quest. If the bible doesn’t declare its own infallibility, and it doesn’t, then why should I trust the bible. However, I can tell you who collected, selected, compiled, out of a bevy of ungodly writings, codified and then stamped it with the infallible seal of GOD; It was the Catholic Church, and I trust the Catholic Church and no other because they are the only one’s that can trace their descent all the way back to the 12 Apostles. If you trust that the C.C. gave you the correct books of the bible, why don’t you trust the C.C. on other matters? (don’t use the, it fell into apostasy, unless you can provide the accurate date the apostasy took place) You have 2 options in my humble opinion: (1) trust the Catholic Apostolic Church on all matters due to the church’s infallible guide, the Holy Spirit or (2) trust the Bible as a self interpretive collection of books and as your sole authority, which, again was codified by the Catholic Church, and no other, and live in the constant shadow of doubt


#10

part 2:thumbsup:
Sola scriptura, a 16th century protestant man-made doctrine denies all authority and adheres to the bible as the final authority, and individual private interpretation; both of which are clear violations of that man-made doctrine: “For laying aside the commandment of God (Jesus established a church, a command of God and protestants reject it), ye hold the tradition of men…” Mark 7 —and after the break from the C.C. literally thousands of protestant churches based on this man-made doctrine, with their own unique traditions handed down to them by a man have cropped up. (this has always boggled my mind) The Holy Spirit as you will soon see, was sent to the Catholic Apostolic Church by Jesus Christ and that church is allowed, just as the prophets of old were, to interpret Holy Scripture and no other! “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” 1peter 20

According to the bible, Jesus established a church built on Peter and the apostles and the prophets to “teach” and “preach” the good news. The Bible is not a self interpretive collection of books. Although many have taken it upon themselves to do so and look what has happened; , thousands of different churches claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, all with their own unique truths handed down to them via man-made traditions. The Sacred Scriptures, the bible Protestants so dearly cling to, came into this world through the Catholic Apostolic Church which has safeguarded it and passed it down without error, due to the fact that the Holy Spirit has been guiding Her, through every century, as the bible does indeed attest? The Bible clearly says if you have a problem you are to take it to the church, not refer to your bible, and it says the church, not the bible is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth and it says the church is “house of God” built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, and this Apostolic Church will last through all generations, forever and ever: “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (not refer to the bible); and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” —“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church (not write a collection of books); and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:16-18 --"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 18:17-18 This is Jesus giving complete authority to his church!


#11

part 3
“Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; “And are built up you on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, (not built upon the bible) Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” Ephesians 2:19-22 --“to him be glory in the church (because the church is where you find God, Jesus and truth aka the Holy Spirit) and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.”Ephesians 3:21-- “…that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” 1 Tim. 3:15-- If the church, according to your bible is the pillar and ground of truth, thanks to the Holy Spirit, sent by Jesus, then the church is the final arbiter on all matters of faith and morals. (Truth is not relative) “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” Ephesians 1:22-23 --If Jesus wasn’t planning on sticking around to carry out his authority, logically he would need a sort of surrogate or a stand in to make sure his plan for salvation was well guarded and that is why he said: “As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." (authority) And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit (infallible guidance). If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” The church is being guided by the Holy Spirit and simply can’t be wrong regarding the immaculate conception, in my humble opinion. Jesus also told His established Apostolic Church: " Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” So, where does sola scriptura and private interpretation fit into Gods plan for salvation? God The Father sent his Son Jesus into this world to ransom us and redeem us, and to teach, preach and forgive sins, and Jesus also established a church where redemption is found not unlike the Jewish temples in the Old Testament, and in turn Jesus sent His Apostles into the world to teach and preach and forgive sins. The Apostles didn’t walk around handing out self-interpretive bibles; they taught orally. “…go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Jesus will never leave His Church, we have His “Word” on that! He also told them:"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. (this counselor, the H.S. will make sure the church accurately teaches everything Jesus commanded “to the very end of age”) The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” If the protestant reformation led by M.L. was necessary, then Jesus did in fact leave His church as orphans for 1500 years until M.L. came along and saved the day, and we know thats not true; just look at all the division and disunity within all these different and disparate protestant churches, ignoring the bibles message of “unity” and “oneness”!


#12

part 4
Why should I believe that every important thing God wanted to impart, must be recorded in Scripture, when this claim can be found nowhere in the bible? The bible clearly says all authority has been given to the Apostolic Church established by Jesus. Everything Christians love about their religion, has its provenance in the Catholic Church including the Bible itself. Protestants have no problem trusting the church when it comes to collecting, selecting, compiling and codifying Sacred Scripture and then declaring it to be infallible —but they don’t trust the church!!? That is a whopper of a non-sequitur.

At any rate, now anti-Catholics know why catholics accept the Church’s teaching vis a vis Mary being the Immaculate Conception. The I.C. doctrine can certainly be ascertained through a close examination of the bible, and I attach an article to prove it. However, in the end the anti-Catholics may still, not agree with catholics and that is their prerogative.

To capsulize, the protestant claim that the bible is the sole authority on all matters of faith and morals means, either the anti-Catholic wrongly interprets the bible or he or she simply doesn’t believe what it says, which is quite ironic because they use it to refute the immaculate conception.

If you want to hear what God is saying to you, listen to His Church which is His Body and He is the head of that Body, the Church according to Saint Paul, “I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way
Jesus commanded the apostles and the appointed seventy two others (the fledgling apostolic church), to go out two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go, and reminded them that "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves…"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God is near you.’ But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.’ I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town. He then reminds them of their authority: “He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.” He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions (metaphor for evil) and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” Luke 10:17-18 Are protestants rejecting God by refusing to listen to Jesus’ Apostolic church?


#13

part 5
Jesus endowed his established church with the holy spirit as her Counselor and promised to be with that church forever. If you believe in the infallibility of the holy spirit then the catholic church is the sole authority to which every Christian should embrace. "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth.“ …that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” 1 Tim. 3:15 “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” Ephesians 1:21-22

I’ll take my chances with the Catholic Apostolic Church which is Jesus’ Mystical body and Jesus is head over all the members of the Church, His Body and that same church is also the house of God, which is the church of the living God and the pillar and ground of truth; Jesus’ church cannot fail and it cannot be wrong concerning the deposit of faith, simply because it His church, not ours, all we can do is hope and pray to be a part of His mystical Home.
“Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; “And are built up you on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, (not built upon the bible) Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” Ephesians 2:19-22 --“to him be glory in the church (because the church is where you find God, Jesus and truth aka the Holy Spirit) and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.”Ephesians 3:21-- “…that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” 1 Tim. 3:15-- If the church, according to your bible is the pillar and ground of truth, thanks to the Holy Spirit, sent by Jesus, then the church is the final arbiter on all matters of faith and morals. (Truth is not relative) “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the churc“Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; “And are built up you on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, (not built upon the bible) Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” Ephesians 2:19-22 --“to him be glory in the church (because the church is where you find God, Jesus and truth aka the Holy Spirit) and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.”Ephesians 3:21-- “…that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” 1 Tim. 3:15-- If the church, according to your bible is the pillar and ground of truth, thanks to the Holy Spirit, sent by Jesus, then the church is the final arbiter on all matters of faith and morals. (Truth is not relative) “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” Ephesians 1:22-23 --If Jesus wasn’t planning on sticking around to carry out his authority, logically he would need a sort of surrogate or a stand in to make sure his plan for salvation was well guarded and that is why he said: “As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." (authority) And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit (infallible guidance). If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” The church is being guided by the Holy Spirit and simply can’t be wrong regarding the immaculate conception, in my humble opinion. Jesus also told His established Apostolic Church: " Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” So, where does sola scriptura and private interpretation fit into Gods plan for salvation? God The Father sent his Son Jesus into this world to ransom us and redeem us, and to teach, preach and forgive sins, and Jesus also established a church where redemption is found not unlike the Jewish temples in the Old Testament, and in turn Jesus sent His Apostles into the world to teach and preach and forgive sins. The Apostles didn’t walk around handing out self-interpretive bibles; they taught orally. “…go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Jesus will never leave His Church, we have His “Word” on that! He also told them:"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. (this counselor, the H.S. will make sure the church accurately teaches everything Jesus commanded “to the very end of age”)


#14

part 6
Jesus will never leave His Church, we have His “Word” on that! He also told them:"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. (this counselor, the H.S. will make sure the church accurately teaches everything Jesus commanded “to the very end of age”) The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” If the protestant reformation led by M.L. was necessary, then Jesus did in fact leave His church as orphans for 1500 years until M.L. came along and saved the day, and we know thats not true; just look at all the division and disunity within all these different and disparate protestant churches, ignoring the bibles message of “unity” and “oneness”!

Why should I believe that every important thing God wanted to impart, must be recorded in Scripture, when this claim can be found nowhere in the bible? The bible clearly says all authority has been given to the Apostolic Church established by Jesus. Everything Christians love about their religion, has its provenance in the Catholic Church including the Bible itself. Protestants have no problem trusting the church when it comes to collecting, selecting, compiling and codifying Sacred Scripture and then declaring it to be infallible —but they don’t trust the church!!? That is a whopper of a non-sequitur.

At any rate, now anti-Catholics know why catholics accept the Church’s teaching vis a vis Mary being the Immaculate Conception. The I.C. doctrine can certainly be ascertained through a close examination of the bible, and I attach an article to prove it. However, in the end the anti-Catholics may still, not agree with catholics and that is their prerogative.

To capsulize, the protestant claim that the bible is the sole authority on all matters of faith and morals means, either the anti-Catholic wrongly interprets the bible or he or she simply doesn’t believe what it says, which is quite ironic because they use it to refute the immaculate conception.

If you want to hear what God is saying to you, listen to His Church which is His Body and He is the head of that Body, the Church according to Saint Paul, “I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way


#15

part 7
Jesus commanded the apostles and the appointed seventy two others (the fledgling apostolic church), to go out two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go, and reminded them that "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves…"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God is near you.’ But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.’ I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town. He then reminds them of their authority: “He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.” He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions (metaphor for evil) and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” Luke 10:17-18 Are protestants rejecting God by refusing to listen to Jesus’ Apostolic church?

Jesus endowed his established church with the holy spirit as her Counselor and promised to be with that church forever. If you believe in the infallibility of the holy spirit then the catholic church is the sole authority to which every Christian should embrace. "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth.“ …that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” 1 Tim. 3:15 “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” Ephesians 1:21-22

I’ll take my chances with the Catholic Apostolic Church which is Jesus’ Mystical body and Jesus is head over all the members of the Church, His Body and that same church is also the house of God, which is the church of the living God and the pillar and ground of truth; Jesus’ church cannot fail and it cannot be wrong concerning the deposit of faith, simply because it His church, not ours, all we can do is hope and pray to be a part of His mystical Home.

Substitute the word bible with the word church and clear it through the magisterium and I would gladly embrace sola scriptura…


#16

Joe, while no, I didn’t read the rest of your post (and I do admire your determination in doing the 6 posts), I’m not sure if you understand the thread.

Yes, it’s necessary to believe that the IC happened. But was it the only way God could have created the Mother of our Lord?

No, because all things are possible with God.

So, yes, the IC is a necessary belief and a beautiful teaching at that!!! But I doubt if it was the only possibility the Creator of the Universe had in His Salvation Plan.for us.


#17

:blush:
I apologize for the redundancy; I am using OpenOffice.org in lieu of Microsoft word, and it is real buggy. For some reason, when I copied and pasted it to this thread, several paragraphs were copied twice.


#18

“So, yes, the IC is a necessary belief and a beautiful teaching at that!!! But I doubt if it was the only possibility the Creator of the Universe had in His Salvation Plan.for us.”

I guess I did kind of go off on a tangent. —I totally agree with you! I would imagine God can pretty much do what ever He wants, after all He is the creator of everything!!!

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26


#19

Amen Joe, and welcome to the Forums!!!

I hope you have a pleasant and enlightening stay.


#20

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