Immaculate Conception of Mary ...rejected by our St.Thomas Aquinas


#1

What does our Modern Church say to this ?
Is he considered a heretic or posthumously anathematized ?


#2

[quote="brb3, post:1, topic:308652"]
What does our Modern Church say to this ?
Is he considered a heretic or posthumously anathematized ?

[/quote]

It's not exactly true that St. Thomas did not believe in the IC. What he believed is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches - that from the moment of SPIRITUAL CONCEPTION, Mary was perfectly united to God. The issue is that St. Thomas believed, like a lot of people in those days, that the SPIRITUAL conception (the "quickening" - i.e., the moment that the soul is infused into the body) occurred at a different time than the PHYSICAL conception (according to some accounts, up to 40 days after the physical conception). Now, we understand that spiritual conception occurs at the same time as physical conception. But the doctrine of the IC has ALWAYS been about the SPIRITUAL conception of Mary, not her physical conception.

To repeat, St. Thomas indeed believed that Mary was perfectly united to God from the moment of her SPIRITUAL conception, which is exactly what the doctrine of the IC teaches.

Blessings,
Marduk


#3

[quote="brb3, post:1, topic:308652"]
What does our Modern Church say to this ?

[/quote]

Your statement is not accurate vis-a-vis Thomas Aquinas.

Furthermore, the "modern Church" doesn't have anything to say to this

[quote="brb3, post:1, topic:308652"]
Is he considered a heretic or posthumously anathematized ?

[/quote]

No, he is a canonized Saint.

One cannot be a heretic when one has not taught heresy. And why would the Church "anathematize" (sic) him?


#4

[quote="mardukm, post:2, topic:308652"]

It's not exactly true that St. Thomas did not believe in the IC. What he believed is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches - that from the moment of SPIRITUAL CONCEPTION, Mary was perfectly united to God. The issue is that St. Thomas believed, like a lot of people in those days, that the SPIRITUAL conception (the "quickening" - i.e., the moment that the soul is infused into the body) occurred at a different time than the PHYSICAL conception (according to some accounts, up to 40 days after the physical conception). Now, we understand that spiritual conception occurs at the same time as physical conception. But the doctrine of the IC has ALWAYS been about the SPIRITUAL conception of Mary, not her physical conception.

To repeat, St. Thomas indeed believed that Mary was perfectly united to God from the moment of her SPIRITUAL conception, which is exactly what the doctrine of the IC teaches.

Blessings,
Marduk

[/quote]

Well, he believed she was redeemed, thus not w/o sin at conception.

Also, how do you know at what moment the spirit is birthed within a fertilized egg ?


#5

[quote="brb3, post:4, topic:308652"]
Well, he believed she was redeemed, thus not w/o sin at conception.

[/quote]

Being redeemed does not mean she was "thus no w/o sin". The doctrine of the IC says it is by the merits of her son, that means she too needed the redeemer and was redeemed.

[quote="brb3, post:4, topic:308652"]
Also, how do you know at what moment the spirit is birthed within a fertilized egg ?

[/quote]

The soul is not "birthed". It is specially created by God. The Church tells us it is at conception.


#6

Also, does the Church reference footnote the beliefs of St THOMAS in their recent IC teachings on Mary ?


#7

[quote="brb3, post:4, topic:308652"]
Well, he believed she was redeemed, thus not w/o sin at conception.

[/quote]

This does not follow. As a human, Mary needed redemption. In her case Jesus' saving acts were applied to her prior to her conception.

Also, how do you know at what moment the spirit is birthed within a fertilized egg ?

How does this matter?


#8

[quote="1ke, post:5, topic:308652"]

The soul is not "birthed". It is specially created by God. The Church tells us it is at conception.

[/quote]

Where in scripture do we learn these details ? Where in science do we ? Where in tradition?


#9

My point is… St.THOMAS knew the Scriptures & Tradition of Church. So, if he wasn’t sure about Mary’s IC … how can we ?


#10

St. Thomas Aquinas went back and forth and ultimately affirmed it--unfortunately, he argued against it in his most famous work, the Summa (although, in his period of denial, he still believed her to be sanctified in the womb immediately after conception).

First, he affirmed it: "Such was the purity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was exempt from both original and actual sin." [Com. in I Sent, d. 44, q. 1, a. 3, ad 3]

Later, in the Summa, he explicitely denies it: "The Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original sin." [Summa theologiae IIIa, q. 27, a. 2, ad 2]

Ultimately, though, he accepted it: "For she was most pure because she incurred the stain neither of original sin nor of mortal sin nor of venial sin." [Expositio super salutatione angelica]


#11

Because at the time of St Thomas the IC had not been dogmatically defined. Now, it has been. It has been infallibly defined by the Church, therefore w emay be SURE about it.


#12

[quote="brb3, post:9, topic:308652"]
My point is...... St.THOMAS knew the Scriptures & Tradition of Church. So, if he wasn't sure about Mary's IC .... how can we ?

[/quote]

The Church, in the person of the Roman Pontiff, has definitively judged the issue. Even if you don't believe in papal infallibility, the whole Church received the teaching and has continually taught it as such. That's how we can be sure.


#13

[quote="1ke, post:11, topic:308652"]

Because at the time of St Thomas the IC had not been dogmatically defined. Now, it has been. It has been infallibly defined by the Church, therefore w emay be SURE about it.

[/quote]

Yes, but the Church teaches we must accept Everything he wrote/taught. And, clearly he was at best UNSURE on the IC question.


#14

[quote="brb3, post:6, topic:308652"]
Also, does the Church reference footnote the beliefs of St THOMAS in their recent IC teachings on Mary ?

[/quote]

No.


#15

The church does not teach this.


#16

No, the Church does not teach this.


#17

[quote="Genesis315, post:10, topic:308652"]

...in his most famous work, the Summa (although, in his period of denial, he still believed her to be sanctified in the womb immediately after conception).

[/quote]

This would seem totally c/w scripture.... that she need to be redeemed of ORIGINAL SIN. SCRIPTURE TEACHING: All have sinned and fallen short of glory of God.

And, also in light of her own TESTIMONY ...that she had been redeemed !!!

Since when does 18th century 'revelations' trump Paul & Mary's own HS received inspiration !!


#18

Saint Thomas was a philosopher who attempted to use reason to find true. In some matters, Saint Thomas was correct, and in some matters he wasn't.

Now, Saint Thomas will concur, that it takes both faith and reason to find divine truth. Lot's of philosophers attempted to find true, but could only come up with conflicting answers. Thus the Catholic Church was tasked by Christ to sort out truth.

When the church defines a doctrine, it is merely stating something that was always true. It has use language developed by Saint Thomas to express this truth, while disregarding that which was find to be untrue from his writings.

Simply put, not everything written by Saint Thomas of Aquinas turned out to be true. However, no body had asked the questions he was attempting to answer yet. Only after many others had contributed their thoughts could the church sort through the matter and find the truth!


#19

[quote="brb3, post:17, topic:308652"]
This would seem totally c/w scripture.... that she need to be redeemed of ORIGINAL SIN. SCRIPTURE TEACHING: All have sinned and fallen short of glory of God.

And, also in light of her own TESTIMONY ...that she had been redeemed !!!

Since when does 18th century 'revelations' trump Paul & Mary's own HS received inspiration !!

[/quote]

Are you a Catholic? You seem a little confused on Scripture and Tradition.


#20

[quote="1ke, post:16, topic:308652"]

No, the Church does not teach this.

.

[/quote]

You're saying in this single case, on Mary's IC .. we can ignore his writings ?


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