Immaculate Conception

I got this from a fundamentalist website, please explain it.

Today’s Question: The virgin Mary was conceived without sin, so God is evermore present within her and that is why she did not sin on earth though she was human–and it is impossible to sin when filled with the Spirit–the angels who sinned were on a probationary period they could and did sin a great sin which put some into hell. But the other angels have no possibility of doing this and for the same reason the blessed virgin has no possibility of doing this. *
[left]
Janice Rathburn *
[/left]
Bible Answer: Concerning Mary not sinning. The Bible clearly tells us that she sinned. She called God her savior. “And Mary said: My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my savior” (Luke 1:46). You only need a savior if your need saving. Mary needed saving like everyone else. The Bible also records a great sin by Mary. She doubted her son’s mission.

Mark 3:21 says, "When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

Did Jesus family who thought that He was crazing include Mary? It sure did because later in that same chapter it says,

Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.” “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother” (Mark 3:31-35)

So it’s clear that Mary committed the sin of doubt. As the Bible says, "everything that does not come from faith is sin. (Rom 14:23).

Another way to prove that Mary was not born without the stain of original sin, simply look at Luke 2:21-24:

On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived. When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”), and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”

Who was the sacrifice of sins made for? Lev 12:6-7 clearly says that the sacrifice was for the mother.

"'When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. He shall offer them before the LORD to make atonement for her, and then she will be ceremonially clean from her flow of blood. "'These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl.

Now Janice, I think that you are a reasonable person. How do you answer these verses and still hold to the Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception?

Is it a sin for a women to deliver a baby? I understand the unclean part of the birth[afterbirth]. I thought the delivery of a baby is a gift from God. Now as far as the doubt issue,okay I guess thats why many of us sin and we dont even realize it.Thats what it says in romans 14 vs 23. :confused: God Bless

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

Well, Catholics do agree that Mary indeed rejoices in God as her saviour, only that she was saved by God far** ahead** of us, since she is to be the vessel that would bear the divine Word. The vessel as such should be pure and without stain, to be worthy of the son she would bear.The fact that she was saved in such a manner means that Mary had even more reason to rejoice in God as her saviour, far more than we do. This is precisely the reason why we say that Mary was conceived without sin, because of the great role she was to play in the salvation of humanity, to be the mother of the Redeemer Himself.

Gerry :slight_smile:

robedwithlight is the winner!

good answer. :slight_smile:

The person who put these so called biblical proofs that Mary was not sinnless sure plays fast and loose with the Scriptures. Fundementalists what so badly to disprove this dogma that they will go so far as to even play games with the Scripture they hold so dear.

Quote:“The Bible also records a great sin by Mary. She doubted her son’s mission.”

Mark 3:21 says, "When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
[size=2]Is it possible that members of Jesus’ family other than Mary could be spoken of here? I think that it is at least a possibility. Think of all the times Mary was told of Her Sons special mission, for example the angel Gabriel and Simeon in the Book of Luke not to mention Elizabeth and Mary herself in the same book. They both acknowledge the role of her Son. In fact the very verse that this evangelical uses to prove that Mary accuses herself of being a sinner she also acknowledges Jesus as her savior. He cannot have it both ways.

[/size]

Quote:Did Jesus family who thought that He was crazing include Mary? It sure did because later in that same chapter it says,

Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.” “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother” (Mark 3:31-35)

This person leaves out the fact that days could have passed bewteen the two events that occoured. It does not seem likely that a persons mother would call him crazy no matter who the person is let alone Jesus. This person then seems to be saying that Jesus was rejecting his blood relatives when his mother and other relatives come to see him. I find this hard to believe that Jesus would treat his mother disrespectfully since that would be a sin. Instead look at the context of the verse Jesus is in teaching mode. He used this as an opprotunity to teach about the family of God not as an opprotunity to dis His family. Last,look at the Gospel of John at the wedding of Cana. Mary basicly is asking Jesus to make more wine and Jesus tells her dont you know my time has not yet come. It seems that Jesus and Mary had spoken about his mission and how it would come about so how does one think that Mary would doubt his mission long after he had been teaching and healing and turning water into wine. As I said out of context these verses could seem to have some merit but when read in the light of all the Gospels they seem like a quite silly argument.

Today’s Question:The virgin Mary was conceived without sin, so God is evermore present within her and that is why she did not sin on earth though she was human–and it is impossible to sin when filled with the Spirit
** I didn’t know this - I’ve been filled with the Spirit since my baptism, yet I’ve been a sinner as long as I’ve been able.
–the angels who sinned were on a probationary period
WHERE DID THIS COME FROM???

  • they could and did sin a great sin which put some into hell. But the other angels have no possibility of doing this*
    Why? When this probationary period ended were the angels robbed of their free will?
    *and for the same reason the blessed virgin has no possibility of doing this. *
    ** The Blessed Virgin was not blessed because she did not have the ability to sin - she was a faithful servant of God. She was born full of grace and with a free will, as was Jesus, and like Him remained faithful in the face of temptation to sin.
    Bible Answer:Concerning Mary not sinning. The Bible clearly tells us that she sinned.
    I love this - “The Bible” always “clearly” says things it does not say at all when a Protestant is at the helm.
    She called God her savior. “And Mary said: My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my savior” (Luke 1:46). You only need a savior if your need saving. Mary needed saving like everyone else.
    This was already answered well by [size=2]RobedWithLight.[/size]

continued:

The Bible also records a great sin by Mary.
If the Bible recorded a great sin of hers, we would not refer to her as sinless.
She doubted her son’s mission.
Mark 3:21 says, "When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
Did Jesus family who thought that He was crazing include Mary? It sure did because later in that same chapter it says,

Then* Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.” “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother” (Mark 3:31-35)*

First, his relatives said he was out of his mind, THEN his mother arrived.
So it’s clear that Mary committed the sin of doubt.
WRONG!!
As the Bible says, "everything that does not come from faith is sin. (Rom 14:23).

Another way to prove
The Church teaches that she was born without original sin, therefore it is impossible to “prove” otherwise.
that Mary was not born without the stain of original sin, simply look at Luke 2:21-24:

  • On the eighth day…*
    **
    What else was a faithful Jewish woman to do? As far as she was concerned, the Law was the Law - not the first word had been rescinded. If she wanted to be sinful, she could have PRESUMED that the Law no longer applied to her and dispensed with its requirements.
    Who was the sacrifice of sins made for? Lev 12:6-7 clearly says that the sacrifice was for the mother.

"'When the days…

This “flow of blood” was a very big deal. It made a woman ceremonially unclean and required dealing with, whether sin was involved or not.

Now Janice, I think that you are a reasonable person. How do you answer these verses and still hold to the Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception?

Now Janice, I think that you are a reasonable person. I hope you can see through these Bible-thumper rantings and understand that if the Church teaches it, it is true. The Church is charged with a serious commission - the defense of Christian truth at any or all cost - and has never erred and can never err in this mission. If you ask a Protestant about a Catholic doctrine, you will get half-truths, distortions, or outright lies about what scripture and Tradition have to say about the subject, and they will usually say that scripture “clearly” contradicts Church teaching. This is a BIG red flag that they are lying.

Just from reading my bible, it looks like a crowd was at the house. verse 20. It sounds crazy. Jesus’ friends thought it was and went and told Mary all about it…So she came to see. Probably like any mother would. Thats not a sin.
This is also just an opinion I have from reading these verses. I think Mary is without doubt myself.
I know this is the scripture board. I can read so I think that qualifies me to comment.:bounce:

[quote=wonkimoto]Just from reading my bible, it looks like a crowd was at the house. verse 20. It sounds crazy. Jesus’ friends thought it was and went and told Mary all about it…So she came to see. Probably like any mother would. Thats not a sin.
This is also just an opinion I have from reading these verses. I think Mary is without doubt myself.
I know this is the scripture board. I can read so I think that qualifies me to comment.:bounce:
[/quote]

This is also what I got from this.

Incidentally, the RSV translation is:

[left]…when his friends heard it, they went out to seize him, for they said, “He is beside himself.”[/left]

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.