In Defense of Free Will - Need Help Developing an Idea


#1

Matthew 26:39

“Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, “My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.””

Mar 14:36
"And He said, “Abba, Father! All things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me. Nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.”"

Luk 22:42
"Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Me–nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done."

The idea here is to show that Jesus had free will in His human nature. We know that when He says “my will” here He cannot be talking about His divine nature, because all Three Persons have the same will. If it wee otherwise, we would not have a Three Persons in one Godhead but a Polytheism. So He must be referring to His human nature.

I’m toying with the idea of how to show that Christ can’t simply be making a mistake here in thinking He has a free will but not really having one. One idea is that He, being God, knows all. However we run into problems because some things (like the time of the end of the world) He does not know/does not choose to know. Therefore, my idea is to say that Christ cannot speak an untruth about God, as this would be some sort of sin. I somewhat want to avoid this because it will lead to a discussion of mortal/venial sins, which is not the point and will be a distraction. Nevertheless, I think it is a valid point.

Any help in developing that idea, fixing the other one so I can say that Christ as God knows these things, and in developing the first idea about the Divine wills being the same but the human will not being so, would be greatly appreciated. Also, any other references to where Jesus shows free will in His human nature would be appreciated. For instance, I want to discuss how Christ had to have free will to be tempted by Satan, but I am not sure how to develop that either. Also if you have any random quotes about free will from Scripture, please put them up.

That being said, please restrict these other quotes to side notes and stick to the topic in general. Also, please NO DEBATES here. If someone wants to debate free will, start another thread please. Thanks!


#2

I think you need to read Maximus the Confessor on this. I haven’t read his discussion myself, but I believe it’s generally considered definitive. (It was part of what was called the “monothelite” controversy.)

Edwin


#3

:bible1:


#4

Hello Lazerlike,

The question on Jesus having both human free will and a divine will at the same time is a crux to the Church.

I ask you to consider this. We know that God is outside of time. Time is only a measure of `change between matter, energy and empty space. Physical time has no restraints on our Spiritual God who exists outside of physical time and is Omni-Present to the whole of physical time which He created.

What happens to someone when they are eternally begotten of God into spiritual life? Begotten into a spiritual life outside of physical time and Omni-Present to the whole of physical time? Does someone eternally begotten of God not exist as Spirit from ‘before’ the creation of physical time?

In consideration of God’s Spiritual Omni-Present existance outside of physical time, one could have both human free-will before being begotten of God and no free will in a divine Nature which exists from before creation at the same point in physical time.

The question becomes? When was Jesus eternally begotten of God as we Catholics believe He was?

Please visit Jesus Loves God

NAB MAT 4:1 The Temptation.

Then Jesus was led into the desert by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil.NAB LUK 22:28

“You are the ones who have stood loyally by me in my temptations.”

NAB LUK 22:42

“Father, if it is** your will**, take this cup from me; yet not my will but yours be done.” NAB HEB 4:14

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness, but one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet never sinned. NAB HEB 2:14
Jesus likewise had a full share in ours, that by his death he might rob the devil, the prince of death, of his power, and free those who through fear of death had been slaves their whole life long. Surely he did not come to help angels, but rather the children of Abraham; therefore he had to become like his brothers in every way, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest before God on their behalf, to expiate the sins of the people. **Since he was himself tested through what he suffered, he is able to help those who are tempted.**NAB ISA 7:14

Therefore the LORD himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. He shall be living on curds and honey by the time **he learns to reject the bad and choose the good. **NAB ROM 5:18

To sum up, then: just as a single offense brought condemnation to all men, **a single righteous act brought all men acquittal and life. **Just as through one man’s disobedience all became sinners, so through one man’s obedience all shall become just. **NAB HEB 5:5 **

Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered; and when perfected, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obeyed him,

NAB JOH 10:17

“The Father loves me for this: that I lay down my life to take it up again. No one takes it from me; I lay it down freely.” NAB JOH 15:12

This is my commandment: love one another as** I have loved you. There is no greater love than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.** You are my friends if you do what I command you.**NAB JOH 14:30 **

"I shall not go on speaking to you longer; the Prince of this world is at hand. He has no hold on me, but the world must know that I love the Father and do as the Father has commanded me." NAB JOH 4:34

“**Doing the will of him who sent me and bringing his work to completion is my food.” **

NAB JOH 8:29

“The One who sent me is with me. He has not deserted me **since I always do what pleases him.”**NAB REV 3:21

“I will give the victor the right to sit with me on my throne, as I myself won the victory and took my seat beside my Father on his throne.”


#5

Monothelitism, Catholic Encyclopedia**The two Wills. **

The Catholic doctrine is simple, at all events in its main lines. The faculty of willing is an integral part of human nature: therefore, our Lord had a human will, since He took a perfect human nature. His Divine will on the other hand is numerically one with that of the Father and the Holy Ghost. It is therefore necessary to acknowledge two wills in Christ.


#6

[quote=Matt16_18]Monothelitism, Catholic Encyclopedia**The two Wills. **

The Catholic doctrine is simple, at all events in its main lines. The faculty of willing is an integral part of human nature: therefore, our Lord had a human will, since He took a perfect human nature. His Divine will on the other hand is numerically one with that of the Father and the Holy Ghost. It is therefore necessary to acknowledge two wills in Christ.

[/quote]

hello Matt,

If Jesus had used human free will to choose hatred, sin and damnation (which He did not) as Adam had, how would that effect His Divine will and Nature?


#7

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.