In quoting the Word of God do Catholics want it both ways?


#1

(Matthew 16:18-19) “So I now say to you; you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven.”

I believe Catholics take this Scripture and believe that it very literally says that the Catholic church holds the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 5:43) “You have learnt how it was said: You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say this to you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; in this way you will be sons of your Father in Heaven.”

How come then when Matthew is again quoted it has to be watered down like in the following example. A Catholic director, Religious Education “The Catholic tradition teaches that while all killing is morally wrong, killing in a certain context (i.e. self-defense can be justified and as a result is not as serious a sin as pre-meditated murder. Since the killing of any human being regardless of the context is a violation of god’s love, the Catholic view maintains that violence and war are results of man’s fallen nature (original sin) and as such it is morally justified for a man to protect his family and kill a thief who enters the home.”
Now let us read what Luke says about some one who robs you? (Luke 6:30) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you.”

Now lets read what John and Hebrews says about a Christian’s sinful nature.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”


#2

2318 “In [God’s] hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind” (*Job *12:10).

2319 Every human life, from the moment of conception until death, is sacred because the human person has been willed for its own sake in the image and likeness of the living and holy God.

2320 The murder of a human being is gravely contrary to the dignity of the person and the holiness of the Creator. 2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.


Perhaps this will help you understand the Catholic way of life.

You must remember, my brother in Christ, that Catholic Christians are not children of the Book. We are Children of the Word Incarnate, and so do not rely only upon Holy Scripture for guidance. In fact, Holy Scripture tells us not to do that, saying that not everything that Jesus said was recorded in Scripture (Jn 21:25).

Our beautiful dogmas and doctrines of the Truth have been developed based on Holy Scripture and Tradition. Want it ‘both ways’? No, my brother. We have it one way, The Way! The Way, The Truth and the Light! JOIN US!


#3

The knife cuts both ways, ya know. How do you interpret John 3:5 if you believe baptism is symbollic? How can you explain away John 6 if you don’t believe in the Real Presense? If you are OSAS how much do you embrace James 2:24?

Notice what the quote actually says "as such it is morally justified for a man to protect his family and kill a thief who enters the home.”

The emphasis is on protecting the family, not property. You are not morally justified to kill someone stealing your bicycle off the front porch, but only if your family is in danger.

Absolute pacifism is naive and dangerous, people will take advantage of it.


#4

even considering scripture only, i still don’t see anything
contrary… unless you think the gentleman believed in killing
to prevent a theft… i’m sure he doesn’t, the word “thief” used
in his example was surely subordinate to the term “protect his
family” in reasoning why the speaker felt the defense was justified…

:slight_smile:


#5

[quote=Robert Heibel](Matthew 16:18-19) “So I now say to you; you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven.”

I believe Catholics take this Scripture and believe that it very literally says that the Catholic church holds the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 5:43) “You have learnt how it was said: You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say this to you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; in this way you will be sons of your Father in Heaven.”

How come then when Matthew is again quoted it has to be watered down like in the following example. A Catholic director, Religious Education “The Catholic tradition teaches that while all killing is morally wrong, killing in a certain context (i.e. self-defense can be justified and as a result is not as serious a sin as pre-meditated murder. Since the killing of any human being regardless of the context is a violation of god’s love, the Catholic view maintains that violence and war are results of man’s fallen nature (original sin) and as such it is morally justified for a man to protect his family and kill a thief who enters the home.”
Now let us read what Luke says about some one who robs you? (Luke 6:30) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you.”

Now lets read what John and Hebrews says about a Christian’s sinful nature.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
[/quote]

Killing in self-defense is no sin at all, to say otherwise is heresy. Pacifism itself is a heresy. Jesus Himself says that He will return with a sword.


#6

[quote=Robert Heibel](Matthew 16:18-19) “So I now say to you; you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven.”

I believe Catholics take this Scripture and believe that it very literally says that the Catholic church holds the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 5:43) “You have learnt how it was said: You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say this to you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; in this way you will be sons of your Father in Heaven.”

How come then when Matthew is again quoted it has to be watered down like in the following example. A Catholic director, Religious Education “The Catholic tradition teaches that while all killing is morally wrong, killing in a certain context (i.e. self-defense can be justified and as a result is not as serious a sin as pre-meditated murder. Since the killing of any human being regardless of the context is a violation of god’s love, the Catholic view maintains that violence and war are results of man’s fallen nature (original sin) and as such it is morally justified for a man to protect his family and kill a thief who enters the home.”
Now let us read what Luke says about some one who robs you? (Luke 6:30) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you.”

Now lets read what John and Hebrews says about a Christian’s sinful nature.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
[/quote]

"The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. 'The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor…The one is intended, the other is not."
CCC-2263


#7

on the same lines, is it acceptable to kill to protect your daughter? How about if she is two and the man is a psychopath who broke into your house? The issue is in the intent of the action, I was reading in the Early Church Fathers (unfortunately I don’t remeber which one) where the issue was decided by intent, that is to hit a man with the intent of killing him, even in self defence, is murder; but to kill a man when your intent was merely defence of the helpless (ie your children) is not murder because killing him was not your intent. :thumbsup:


#8

Jesus was not a pacifist.

[quote=KJV James 2:15]And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
[/quote]

.

:slight_smile:


#9

[quote=Semper Fi]Killing in self-defense is no sin at all, to say otherwise is heresy. Pacifism itself is a heresy. Jesus Himself says that He will return with a sword.
[/quote]

I’m curious as to the statement, “Pacifism itself is a heresy”. Can you elaborate on that or tell me where this doctrine is located?
Thanks…


#10

[quote=Robert Heibel](Matthew 16:18-19) “So I now say to you; you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven.”

I believe Catholics take this Scripture and believe that it very literally says that the Catholic church holds the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
[/quote]

This is one of the passages of Scripture the Church has said must be primarily interpreted to mean that Christ gave Peter the authority to speak in His name, yes. But, we don’t “take this Scripture and believe” as if it alone was the proof of Peter’s authority. Rather this passage, as does all of the Bible, witnesses to Christ and His Church, but it does not “prove” anything. Catholics don’t use the Bible as a proof-text, but as the primary witness to Christ and His Church, and for our growth in faith, hope, and love. :wink:

(Matthew 5:43) “You have learnt how it was said: You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say this to you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; in this way you will be sons of your Father in Heaven.”

How come then when Matthew is again quoted it has to be watered down like in the following example. A Catholic director, Religious Education “The Catholic tradition teaches that while all killing is morally wrong, killing in a certain context (i.e. self-defense can be justified and as a result is not as serious a sin as pre-meditated murder. Since the killing of any human being regardless of the context is a violation of god’s love, the Catholic view maintains that violence and war are results of man’s fallen nature (original sin) and as such it is morally justified for a man to protect his family and kill a thief who enters the home.”

Now let us read what Luke says about some one who robs you? (Luke 6:30) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you.”

Now lets read what John and Hebrews says about a Christian’s sinful nature.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

Others have answered you as to what the Church teaches regarding self-defense, so I won’t belabor it again. However, I will say that DRE didn’t water down anything. He gave you the answer drawn from ALL of Scripture and the Sacred Tradition of the Church from which Scripture sprang, while you have provided us with only those verses that would seem to support your position. So in reality, who has actually watered down God’s word? You! :eek:

And, I always find it amusing that our Protestant brethren come here, citing Bible verses for us, with the tone of a patient teacher showing the children something they must never have seen before simply because we don’t agree with your presuppositions. Really now, did you think we were unaware of these verses or that our Catholic Bibles don’t contain them? We are aware, and they do. And not only these verses, but all the other ones too, which is why we don’t pull verses out of context to try to prove this point or that, but draw on all that God has revealed to us through Christ and His Church. :smiley:


#11

Robert,

You are confusing murder and self defense. You might try taking these scripture verses into account to complete your understanding:

Acts 7:22
And Moses was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and he was mighty in his words and deeds. "When he was forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren, the sons of Israel. And seeing one of them being wronged, he defended the oppressed man and avenged him by striking the Egyptian. He supposed that his brethren understood that God was giving them deliverance by his hand, but they did not understand.

Romans 13:1-4
LET EVERY person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.

Your view apparently denies self defense and protection of the weak or anyone else from an aggressor/murderer. This simply doesn’t make any sense at all.


#12

[quote=Semper Fi]Jesus was not a pacifist.

.

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Even if you don’t think Jesus was a pacifist, He told us to be pacifist. Remember He let Himself be hung on a cross.


#13

[quote=johnshelby]even considering scripture only, i still don’t see anything
contrary… unless you think the gentleman believed in killing
to prevent a theft… i’m sure he doesn’t, the word “thief” used
in his example was surely subordinate to the term “protect his
family” in reasoning why the speaker felt the defense was justified…

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Show me is Scripture where Jesus ever said we had a right to defend ourselves? You know He personally told me that we were not to hurt (harm) anyone for any reason. I wonder if you or any one you know has ever heard Him tell you any different?


#14

[quote=Robert Heibel]Show me is Scripture where Jesus ever said we had a right to defend ourselves? You know He personally told me that we were not to hurt (harm) anyone for any reason. I wonder if you or any one you know has ever heard Him tell you any different?
[/quote]

He personally told you? When did He return? Are you a new prophet? :confused:

I suggest you check out catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp.


#15

[quote=ahimsaman72]I’m curious as to the statement, “Pacifism itself is a heresy”. Can you elaborate on that or tell me where this doctrine is located?
Thanks…
[/quote]

Because pacifism develops into moral relativism which denies that there is no explicit good or evil (which is an ancient gnostic heresy).


#16

[quote=Robert Heibel]Even if you don’t think Jesus was a pacifist, He told us to be pacifist. Remember He let Himself be hung on a cross.
[/quote]

That is why he came. I am here to protect and serve my family, I can’t do that very well if I run about giving stickers and fresh baked cookies to those trying to murder and rape them.


#17

RH, read Della’s response again. I’m sorry that you Protestants always take one or two verses and say how about this. As Catholics we interpret the Bible as one whole book putting all of God’s word together for our world view. If you have an understanding that Christ the Word formed one church with Peter having the keys the rest should eventually fall into place.

May God Bless and Protect Us
Jlcastagna

Your Arms are to short to box with God!:smiley:


#18

[quote=ahimsaman72]I’m curious as to the statement, “Pacifism itself is a heresy”. Can you elaborate on that or tell me where this doctrine is located?
Thanks…
[/quote]

It has to be. If one is to be a pacifist then one would have to never support acts of violence for any reason what so ever. One would be in support of those who by force and might would exterminate any who oppose them, simply because one would be against use of forces of arm to rectify the situation. One would thusly condemn the acts the Israelites commanded by God in the holy scriptures, and the acts of Jesus himself.

Pacifism is contrary to the nature of Christianity, and therefore heresy. Christianity requires the we exercise all the facilities given to us by the Lord our God, including common sense.


#19

[quote=Robert Heibel]Even if you don’t think Jesus was a pacifist, He told us to be pacifist. Remember He let Himself be hung on a cross.
[/quote]

there is a little difference… Jesus made a sacrifice, to save our
souls… allowing someone to kill an innocent victim, doesn’t
save anyone’s soul…

if there is any other way, of course, no one should ever kill
anyone… but, in the case where there is no choice, kill or
allow someone to be killed… then it’s different…

wouldn’t it be wonderful if this were a ‘hypothetical’ discussion?
if killing were a thing of the distant past…

:slight_smile:


#20

[quote=Robert Heibel](Matthew 16:18-19) “So I now say to you; you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven.”

I believe Catholics take this Scripture and believe that it very literally says that the Catholic church holds the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 5:43) “You have learnt how it was said: You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say this to you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; in this way you will be sons of your Father in Heaven.”

How come then when Matthew is again quoted it has to be watered down like in the following example. A Catholic director, Religious Education “The Catholic tradition teaches that while all killing is morally wrong, killing in a certain context (i.e. self-defense can be justified and as a result is not as serious a sin as pre-meditated murder. Since the killing of any human being regardless of the context is a violation of god’s love, the Catholic view maintains that violence and war are results of man’s fallen nature (original sin) and as such it is morally justified for a man to protect his family and kill a thief who enters the home.”
Now let us read what Luke says about some one who robs you? (Luke 6:30) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you.”

Now lets read what John and Hebrews says about a Christian’s sinful nature.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
[/quote]

In the Beatitudes, Jesus tells us “blessed are the peacemakers” (Matt. 5:9). Elsewhere in the Sermon on the Mount he tells us “if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matt. 5:39). From such verses some have concluded that Christianity is a pacifist religion and that violence is never permitted.

But the same Jesus elsewhere acknowledges the legitimate use of force, telling the apostles, “let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one” (Luke 22:36). How are these passages to be reconciled?

In broad terms, Christians must not love violence. They must promote peace whenever possible and be slow to resort to the use of arms. But they must not be afraid to do so when it is called for. Evil must not be allowed to remain unchecked.

Added weight is given to this realization when one recognizes that Scripture – all of Scripture – is inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16). This means that the Old Testament is just as inspired as the New Testament and thus an expression of the will of Christ.

The Old Testament acknowledges frankly that there is “a time to kill” (Eccles. 3:3). At various times in the Old Testament, God commanded the Israelites to defend their nation by force of arms. Yet it was always with the recognition that peace is the goal to be worked for. Thus the psalmist exclaims, “how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!” (Ps. 133:1). Peace is the goal, but when it cannot be achieved without force, force must be used.

In the same way, the New Testament sets forth the goal of peace but acknowledges the legitimate use of force. It does so by John the Baptist’s acknowledgment that Roman soldiers, whose job it was to enforce the Pax Romana, or “Peace of Rome,” could keep their jobs (Luke 3:14) and by Paul’s observation that the state “does not bear the sword in vain” but is “God’s servant for your good” (Rom. 13:4).


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