“I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
I think there are a few things that are not well known to most people about partial indulgences.
[LEFT]1. The faithful can obtain the merit which is the principal fruit of the act, and
2. An equal merit is dispensed through the intervention of the Church (from Jesus Christ and the Saints).
3. The amount of merit is in proportion to the degree of charity of the one performing the act and in proportion to the degree of perfection of the performance of the act.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Temporal punishment “entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death” and is not “a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin”. CCC 1472 [/LEFT]
[LEFT]Blessed Pope John Paul II wrote:
“In this context temporal punishment expresses the condition of suffering of those who, although reconciled with God, are still marked by those “remains” of sin which do not leave them totally open to grace. Precisely for the sake of complete healing, the sinner is called to undertake a journey of conversion towards the fullness of love. In this process God’s mercy comes to his aid in special ways. The temporal punishment itself serves as “medicine” to the extent that the person allows it to challenge him to undertake his own profound conversion. This is the meaning of the “satisfaction” required in the sacrament of Penance.”[/LEFT]
[FONT=Arial]Weekly Edition in English[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]6 October 1999, page 15[/LEFT]
Can I just point out to those who are calling indulgences something you “pay for”, that evn the lowly Methodist in the neighborhood knows that there is no “paying” about it.
It doesn’t cost anything.
And having a priest say mass for someone is not a indulgence. It is a pious practice for Christians since Christianity began.
“It would be a sorry thing if the dead were not to be prayed for”–Lady Jane Seymour. (C of E).
Thank you, Zooey.
Yes, some bad, bad dudes took advantage just before the reformation and asked for money in exchange for indulgences. Even though they were clergy, the practice was not condoned by the Church, and it has LONG since disappeared!
A stipend for having a Mass said for someone (alive or deceased) is very small (think 5 or 10 bucks) and does not mean you are paying people to pray for your loved one or paying God to listen to your pleas. The stipend covers building expenses (like A/C), the priest’s time and effort, the cost of communion hosts, etc.
I am so sad that so much nonsense is said and written about this what is an absurd and irrational doctrine (indulgences), made even more ridiculous by the request for payment encouraged by the papacy in the middle ages. (Where do you think the money came from to build St. Peter’s?).
The ONLY way to get forgiveness is by repentance, a firm resolve to amend, and a request to the Father for forgiveness - sometimes in the presence of a priest who as a minister of the His church grants absolution. Nothing of the sin is left! The Lord God does not do things by halves!!
This rediculous doctrine of indulgences has done more harm to Holy Mother Church than any of the sex abuse scandals we hear about today. The sooner it is officially consigned to the garbage bin of theological nonesense together with the doctrine of Limbo recently dumped by the Holy Father, the better. Smile, JESUS loves you.
With every post you are showing that you have no idea what the the Church teaches about indulgences. For example, indulgences have nothing to do with forgiveness of sin. Your inane rantings are doing nothing but fueling the misunderstandings.
There was a time of corruption in the Church with indulgences which was put down by the Council of Trent. And you are correct that the only way to forgiveness is by repentance. However you take exception to the teaching of the Church on double consequence, that is, grave sin results in:
- the loss of communion with God and the eternal liability which is forgiven with imperfect contrition and asking for forgivness, and
- an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth or after death.
The indulgence only applies to the second. When you say nothing of the sin remains, it indicates that you are only referring to the first (guilt and eternal liability). That forgiveness does not include B2 below (temporal liability):
A. Guilt: “Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! . . . Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow” (Ps. 51:2, 7)
B. Liability: “For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil” (Eccl. 12:14)
Eternal: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2)
Temporal: "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.’ … “And to Adam he said, ‘Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, “You shall not eat of it,” cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you, and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return’” (Gen. 3:16-19).
“But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.”
(2 Maccabees 12:40-45)
I know this is an older post but with all do respect you really really don’t know where we are coming from. It’s not as if we are saying we are earning our eternal salvation. Christ did that.
Do you know the difference in eternal salvation and temperal salvation or temperal penalty and eternal penalty? Indulgences deal with the temperal aspects of salvation. If you don’t understand this you want understand what Catholics are saying because you have a un biblical aspect to salvation
You all have brought so many points up here that are worthy of responses so I’ll just try and get them all covered in one post for the sake of time. First, I want to just ask a question of each of you - what IF God’s word, which consitutes scripture, is ALL that we should look to when we grapple with issues like indulgences? What IF what God tells us through scripture is really The Truth that He has for us? It is from scripture on which I will be basing my post. I can’t relate to any other source because it just doesn’t line up with scripture.
We have already looked at Hebrews 12 with regards to the discipline of God. I don’t know of a passage of scripture that makes it more clear than Hebrews 12 - it is not kidding when it tells us:
"5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."
There is no one who knows our hearts and situations and struggles better than God does. He knows exactly what we need in order to mold us and shape us into the people He wants us to be and therefore He chastens us exactly as He deems necessary. Everthing is under His hand and He makes sure that He gives us what we need. Have you ever faced really difficult trials? I sure have and though I didn’t enjoy a minute of those trials, God showed Himself as faithful to lead me through those trials and my faith became richer for it. That’s how God deals with us. In the end, I see those trials as a blessing even though they didn’t feel like blessings at the time.
Another thing that scripture deals with is the matter of restitution. We should provide restitiion where it is possible in order to give back what was taken. Here’s an article that talks about restitution: gotquestions.org/restitution-Bible.html As you probably all know, even our court system will try to ensure at times that restitution is dealt with (though I don’t think it’s often enough). Here in Canada it’s not an automatic thing - it has to be applied for in each case.
I’m going to have to leave it here for the time being - work gets in the way It’s something to think over, anyway.
So?..therefore?..this relates to purgatory but does not follow through…what is your final point: conclusion???
If this is true then, according to your view, scripture itself should tell us that scripture is all we need. Please provide this verse.
…nothing new to my Catholic ears here. I agree with your thoughts on suffering, chastening, and restitution. In fact, one of the ways God chooses to correct us and purify us is through the sacrament of confession, which itself calls for restitution.
“What if scripture is the sole source of divine revelation?”
I suppose that leads to a number of questions.
Why doesn’t scripture itself make that claim?
If the apostles taught sola scriptura, why did nobody practice it until the Reformation?
How do we know the correct canon of scripture?
Why does sola scriptura lead to such diversity of belief?
Now, what if scripture is not the sole source of divine revelation?
But this does not lead to purgatory…that’s the point I was leading into. So if it doesn’t lead us into purgatory, what more is involved?
Going back to 1 John 1: 5 - 10 - “This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”.
This may seem too easy for some of you who are taught that we must keep on doing penance or works in order to be cleansed from our sin. If the cleansing isn’t completed here while alive in the body, then the cleansing will occur in purgatory. But scripture doesn’t support that.
That’s not to say that scripture doesn’t put value in good works. The difference I am seeing between Catholocism and what scripture teaches is that Catholicism teaches doing good works in order to cleanse the stain of sin, whereas the Bible teaches that good works in response to having received the gift of salvation from our Lord Jesus Christ and to walk in obedience with Him.
“1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.” Titus 3:1-8
17 But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, 'Raqa,' will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, 'You fool,' will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you,
leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
Why dosent it? You even quote passages where we are diceplined for sins when we are in Christ.
Bottom line we are deciplined for sins already forgiven. Why can’t we accept that deciplined willingly? And if you are a sinner now in this life will you be in the next? If not how do you go from sinner to non sinner, what happens?
I’d be interested in hearing from you of your interpretation of the above.
It can clearly be understood to support the idea of purgatory and making reparation for the effects of our sins. The person who is jailed is later released after “paying the last penny” so Christ is clearly not talking about damnation here.
You continue to mix up the ideas of
- forgiveness for our sins and
- reparation for the effects of our sins
Please, Lord, someday, before this:blush: Cranky Old Methodist Lady leaves this world for the next…Please, could :rolleyes:**some of the people who come to CAF to complain about indulgences, could some of them get at least a:rolleyes: VAGUE notion of what an indulgence is, before they:rolleyes: post half the New Testament (and:eek: largish selections from the Old) and claim it proves there is no such thing as an indulgence, just because they typed it here?:shrug:
Whether it was even vaguely germane to the issue at hand or not???:shrug:
I feel like Tevye…