Infant baptism/orig sin


#1

Ive heard a few passages argued against orig sin and infant baptism.

The first is Ezekiel 18:20 saying “ONly the one who sins shall die. The son shall not be charged with the guild of his father…” It is argued that this disproves original sin

The second is Romans 7:7-11 where in verse 9 Paul says he was “Once alive outside the law, but when the commandment came, sin became alive; then I died…” It is argued that this shows that we are not born separated from God.

The third is Hebrews 8:6-13 where in verse 11 it says “all shall know me, from least to greatest” talking abuot the new covenant and how it differs from the old covenant. This is used to show that the only adults should be baptised as infants can’t know God (it makes more sense if one reads the whole passage).

How would one respond to these arguments?
Thanks


#2

Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5).

This Bible alone preachers contradicts what they preach. They say “faith alone can save a person.” So the baby cannot have faith yet, so how can the baby be saved?-- That is, thru baptism, not faith alone.

And they say in their arguments by quoting Scriptures: “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” And then starts to attack the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Mother Mary. If they truly believe that “all have sinned”, then it concludes that infants have inherited original sin. This doctrine of original sin is found in the Psalms (I just forgot what chapter and verse, but it’s there). David says there that while he was yet being formed in his mothers womb, he has already sinned.

Here’s one of the early Fathers stating the belief of the early Church:

Irenaeus: “He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (*Against Heresies *2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Pio


#3

hlgomez is telling it like it is. He refers to Psalm 51:5-7 where it says, “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward being; therefore teach me wisdom in my secret heart. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.”

Adam’s Legacy is that we are born in unbelief and disobedience. This is clearly seen in Romans 11:32 “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.” Paul over and over speaks of the gift of grace and faith. We do not have faith at birth. So what of infant baptism? First of all, you need to understand the regenerative nature of baptism and that faith is a gift. If these two things are true and if John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother womb, then clearly we cannot deny baptism to infants.

If you have additional questions regarding infant baptism, I can send you a file of scripture verses that will help out in this regard. Just send me a private message and I will be glad to send it to you.


#4

1 Cor 1:16, When Paul baptised a household it included children and infants. “Household”.


#5

i agree with everything you guys are saying about those other passages and ive looked into all of that. But, i was wondering how one would respond directly to these accusations as opposed to just quoting other passages. Once again, I agree with the other passages, Im just concerned more how one would answerthose first three passages I posted. Any suggestions?

Hopefully that made sense

Thanks again


#6

[size=3][font=Times New Roman]The first is Ezekiel 18:20 saying …e. The son shall not be charged with the guild of his father…" It is argued that this disproves original sin.

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What it proves is the confusion between the actual sins of the father that he committed by informed consent, and the inherited original sin of Adam that we are all born into (that once existed) without our informed consent. Some Protestants see sin as all encompassing, with no distinction between the two. Ezekiel, Zechariah, Psalms and Isaiah goes on to confirm Catholic teaching on original sin and baptism.

Consider this passage from Ezekiel, which captures the Catholic teaching on baptism perfectly: “For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you…And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” (Ezekiel 36:24-27). The allusion to sin being ‘washed away’ is also made by the prophet Isaiah (Cf. Isaiah 1:16, 4:4). Furthermore, in Zechariah, the Lord says, “In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity” (Zechariah 13:1). The prophet is clearly pointing to the baptismal promise, as does King David in the Psalms: “Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin” (Psalms 51:2). And finally, Isaiah links water and salvation, “Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; For the Lord God is my strength and song, and He has become my salvation. Therefore you will joyously draw water from the springs of salvation.” (Isaiah 12:2-3).

[/font]http://www.catholic-legate.com/articles/baptism.html

[size=3][font=Times New Roman]The second is Romans 7:7-11 …that this shows that we are not born separated from God.

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St. Paul defends himself against the charge of identifying the law with sin. Sin does not exist but in human beings, whose sinful inclinations are not overcome by the proclamation of the law. This has nothing to do with how we have sinned in Adam, but is in reference to a charge against him concerning the law.

[size=3][font=Times New Roman]The third is Hebrews 8:6-13 … This is used to show that the only adults should be baptised as infants can’t know God (it makes more sense if one reads the whole passage).

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Check the 4rth post down at

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=17204

kepha1


#7

[quote=ST100]Ive heard a few passages argued against orig sin and infant baptism.

The first is Ezekiel 18:20 saying “ONly the one who sins shall die. The son shall not be charged with the guild of his father…” It is argued that this disproves original sin

The second is Romans 7:7-11 where in verse 9 Paul says he was “Once alive outside the law, but when the commandment came, sin became alive; then I died…” It is argued that this shows that we are not born separated from God.

The third is Hebrews 8:6-13 where in verse 11 it says “all shall know me, from least to greatest” talking abuot the new covenant and how it differs from the old covenant. This is used to show that the only adults should be baptised as infants can’t know God (it makes more sense if one reads the whole passage).

How would one respond to these arguments?
Thanks
[/quote]

In direct response to the verses I would suggest:

Number 1: Read the verses before and after Ezekeil 18:20 and you will see that this verse has nothing tho do with original sin. It in no way denies original sin because it is addressing the actions of people that have reached the age of reason. It is specifically talking about their own personal transgressions, and it declares that God will not hold the son responsible for the trangressions of his father, but the son will be held accountable for his own sins.

Number 2: Read the entire book of Romans and then return to Chapter 7 and the verses contained therein. Notice in Romans 7:5-6 that Paul says, "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that **we serve ** not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit"
Paul is telling us that before baptism and the gift of faith, we were living under the burden of original sin without the power of God’s grace. Now we are in the new life of the Spirit. This is what happens with baptism(the sacrament of faith). If there were no original sin, our relationship with God would be like that of Adam before the fall and we would already be living in the spirit from the moment of our birth.

Number 3: Likewise Hebrews Chapter 8 in no way directly addresses the issue of infant baptism. However, the chapter does talk about both the old and new covenants and how in each covenant God declares “I will be their God and they shall be my people.” So if the pattern is the same for both covenants then we must accept the fact that infants were brought into the old covenant on the eight day after birth. This was signified in the male children through circumcision. Paul equates baptism and circumcision in COLOSSIANS 2:11-12 where we read, “In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

Interestingly enough, the first argument within the Christian Church over infant baptism was not whether or not to baptize infants, but whether or not to do it on the eight day after birth in keeping with the Jewish tradition for circumcision.

I hope this helps.


#8

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