Interesting new Evangelization Trend


#1

With there being no EWTN radio in my area, I listen to a lot of protestant radio pastors. I don’t agree with some of the stuff they say, but overall, I still get good information from it. However, lately, on the radio, as well as in here, I am noticing a new trend in protestant evangelizing.

Basically… here is how it goes…
The Radio pastor talks about witnessing to someone.
The someone has a great many questions.
The Pastor makes comments like, we know she isn’t saved yet because she’s asking all these questions, but that “he indulges her"
To the congregation, he is actually ridiculing her for asking all these questions.
Only after she 'prays a prayer and accepts Christ as her lord and savior” does he consider her to be truely trying to follow Christ.

So, while this is one example, I am seeing this set up more and more often, even in here.

Why is it that we are no longer allowed to question and search? Why are some protestant pastors, (as well as some protestants here as well) teaching that it is BAD to ask questions. Some go so far as to say that you either have no faith, or very little faith if you are asking and searching.

When did seeking truth become a sin and a sign of poor faith?

I thought we were commanded to always seek truth?

(As a note, this is not just one pastor I am hearing it from. I think every radio pastor I have heard on the radio has mentioned this to some degree, so, please don’t just say its just a bad pastor as I am even seeing it here)

In Christ


#2

I don’t claim to have the mindset of a protestant by any means, but I could presuppose that they’re doing this to try and instill into people to completely trust in the Lord in all things. The problem with their approach, though, is that they exclude free will (aka Calvinistic?) in the salvation process. It would depend on that particular pastors’ background and beliefs.

I agree that we should all be child-like when seeking Christ - but by the way these pastors approach this, doesn’t their way discredit the nature we have as intellectual beings in the way God designed us to be?


#3

Because the truth is now out there available to many people, in the form of books, tapes, CD’s, internet. Newspaper articles are encouraging people to read what the Catholic Church teaches, read the Early Church Fathers, look into what the early Christians did and believed. This trend of reading is causing protestants to bring questions to their pastors that they cannot answer or explain. so they are returning to what they have accused the Catholic Church of doing. Believe what I tell you and don’t be off reading these things for yourself.

John - Pastor Roy, This Mr. Augustine talks about Original sin and Baptism in this book I was given.

Pastor Roy - Augustine was a Protestant through and through and attended the Church of England, he was not a Baptist, believe me and don’t worry about it. Now go home read your JKV and throw away that other stuff.

John - Yes, Pastor Roy.


#4

Protestants who relentlessly question and seek tend to become Catholics or atheists.

Let me explain, and please put the torches and pitchforks down.

We have seen there is nothing resembling Protestant theology. There are major different schools and infinite variations on their themes.

Protestants, eschewing the Magisterium, have to replace it with Scripture. Scripture supports, to more or less degrees, many different interpretations. Since Protestants, unlike say, Orthodox, have severe aversion to interpretive authority, and since the conflicting theologies are obviously on display, what they end up doing is emphasizing only certain passages which strengthen their interpretation to the exclusion of others.

This is logical. This is rational. It is also well intended—there is a genuine concern that to ask certain questions, even in light of Scripture, may cause one to lose one’s faith.

For example, Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman was a fundamentalist who believed in the inerrancy of the Bible. His inquiries into how the Bible came to be exposed inconsistencies which really hammered his belief in its inerrancy, and consequently his Christian faith itself. In the last interview I saw, he claimed to agnosticism.

Ehrman is a smart guy, and was a devout fundamentalist Christian. If he could fall prey to such a thing, how might someone less well-educated fare?

Catholics have a relative advantage in that we have Magisterium, Scripture, and Tradition to underpin our faith. It does not disturb me that the Bible gets geography wrong in a couple of places. It does not disturb me that the Bible gets its history wrong in a couple of places. I am a Catholic; such inerrancy is not required.

Moreover, Catholic theology has been formed over 2,000 years and in the face of constant attack. Some doctrines, such as the Trinity, evolved over time. Since we have the Magisterium and Tradition, dogma need not be defined until violated, and absence of evidence is in fact often a sign in favor of dogma for this reason (if no one challenged it for centuries, we wouldn’t expect a Council or papal encyclical to define it).

Thus, a Protestant who seeks the historical Church (asks history questions) or seeks the fullness of Christian theology (asks theological questions) will tend to find more compelling answers in the Catholic Church than elsewhere. That is the truth underscoring the testimony you hear here from converts and reverts.

If a Protestant asks questions of the “How do I know this is true?” variety, and they are unwilling or unable to evaluate the Catholic Church’s teaching (remember, Protestants need to cover a 1,500 year gap historically and theologically; not a lot of incentive to study Church history between Nicea and Trent), the inconsistencies inherent in Protestant theologies will tend to drive them to believing Christian claims as a whole are not proven. That way lies agnosticism or atheism.

Far better to emphasize emotionalism.

And let’s face it—people who ask lots of questions when the emphasis is butts-in-pews are a pain.


#5

It sounds like a rhetorical device to capture the interest of his congregation. After all, what you are describing is the pastor’s dramatic recounting of an event. However, if he actually ridiculed the lady to her face, then maybe he was trying to use ridicule to get her to take some step he wanted her to take (like to recite a prayer or drop a particular objection). I dislike ridicule as a tool and won’t ever use it. Perhaps the pastor feels under pressure to make conversions, or perhaps he feels that whatever works is fine, I don’t know. Perhaps he doesn’t realize he sounds like he is ridiculing her. Maybe he was taught to do it. I’ve been taught to do a number of regrettable things in my life.


#6

I’m familiar with many of the preachers on the radio, would you mind telling us who said this?


#7

LOL…

Roman Catholics, eschewing scripture, have to replace it with the Magisterium.

Since Protestants, unlike say, Orthodox, have severe aversion to interpretive authority

We do? I’m Baptist, which you would consider “protestant” and I’ve never heard this.

In fact, if this is true, then why do we put so much emphasis on things like creeds and confessions and doctrinal accountability?

Would you mind demonstrating your claim?

Catholics have a relative advantage in that we have Magisterium, Scripture, and Tradition to underpin our faith. It does not disturb me that the Bible gets geography wrong in a couple of places.

And where does the Bible get geography wrong?

the inconsistencies inherent in Protestant theologies will tend to drive them to believing Christian claims as a whole are not proven. That way lies agnosticism or atheism.

Would you please give a couple of examples of these “inconsistencies”?

Far better to emphasize emotionalism.

Or, for the Roman Catholic, blind obedience to the men who run his religion.

As for “butts in the pews”, I’m curious to know, if that’s true, why so many Protestant and Baptist churches don’t advertise themselves or actively try to recruit members.


#8

Greetings to you in Christ Bro

Forgive me for not knowing the pastors name, but the pastor of Calvary Tuscon (i think, but I could be wrong his name is Robert Furrow). He had a long thing this morning about how people ask questions and how they don’t need to ask questions. They just need to accept Christ in their hearts and you wont need to ask questions.

He very clearly said he knew that a particular person was then saved because the questions stopped.

I’ve heard other pastors say things similar about how we should just accept and not ask so many questions. That asking questions gets in the way of Faith.

I’ve also heard some protestants on here say things similar. Things like Asking questions over intellectualizes the faith

Anyway… I know this isn’t every denom, and it may only represent a very few number of protestant evangelists, so please don’t take this to mean every denom does this

In Christ


#9

on an aside…

Bro…

I believe we had a passing conversation the other day… And I believe i did not behave myself properly… Was not having a great day and sadly let it slip into here… something I abhor when it occurs.

If any statements I said came of as rude or insensitive, I simply ask for your forgiveness

In Christ


#10

My wife and I, both Roman Catholics from birth and Baptism, are attending Alpha and Beta at a local Baptist Church attended by my son, who was brought up Catholic and my Baptist DIL. It is my observation that they either interpret the same scripture verses far differently than we do or ignore them for one reason or another (“The Old Testament no longer is of value.”), so it becomes stressful for them, in the discussion groups that follow, when we disagree and quote Scripture to back up our viewpoint. They don’t like questions that lead beyond certain verses that are quoted to support their version of Christianity.

The Alpha and Beta(Beta is a study of Philippians.) tapes are quite generic and, although they do not cover the Sacraments at all or any particular liturgical material, have also been used by Catholic parishes. The scripture covered in them is quite accurate, but does not include any material that would raise questions beyond believing in and following Christ with repentance and acceptance of Him as our Lord and Savior.

We are also doing Acts of the Apostles with Jeff Cavins and a Little Rock Study of John in our own parish. What a world of difference there is. Same Bible (RSV), same Lord, but how different are the viewpoints of the participants. After seeing how the other half lives, I cannot imagine why my son would leave our Catholic Faith for this pale shadow of Faith. We had in the past set through one of their Sunday services when our grandson was “dedicated,” not baptized. At any one Mass Catholics are exposed to many more verses of the Bible than one hears in their Sunday Service. Why do they call themselves a Biblical Church as opposed to the Catholic Church.

The other very sad thing for me is the number of ex-Catholics who are involved in running the programs, almost as if they need to do this to reassure their fellow Baptists and themselves that they are truly “saved.” I suppose being ex-Catholics could account for their relatively shallow knowledge of the Bible. They were easily ensnared in the first place. RCIA starts up this Sunday in our parish and I will be blest to meet some people coming the other way.


#11

I agree with this 100%, and that is exactly why some Protestant denominations put so much emphasis on “faith like a child” where one does not ask questions.

I was raised as a Southern Baptist. All through school, up until I was a junior in high school, I went to Sunday School every week, attended youth Bible study weekly, sang in the choir, and everything else a good Baptist youth is supposed to do.

When I was in 11th grade, I had to do a research paper for a biology class on Creation vs. Evolution. As I started my research, I started finding inconsistencies in what I had been taught and started asking questions. This questioning spread from just the creationist view to other things that didn’t make sense about the “faith” I had. I went to my pastor with some questions, and he blew it off with the “you don’t need to ask questions” arguement.

Soon after that, I stopped attending church altogether. I still beleived in God, but not the way He had been taught to me for all those years. I considered myself an agnostic for about 4 years after that. Then, I met the man who is now my husband. He is a faithful cradle Catholic, and as we became friends, he started talking with me about religion. He asked me what I thought, and what questions I had… so I told him. Of course, I had come from a somewhat anti-catholic background, so I thought what he would have to say would be a load of bull, but I decided to listen anyway.

As we continued talking, he was able to answer some of the questions my Baptist pastor had not been able to. The ones he couldn’t answer, he was able to point me to where I could find out. I kept asking and searching for over a year, and was not able to find anything that did not make logical sense when looked at without bias. So I decided to inquire about joining the Church. I’ve now been a member of the One True Church for over 2 years, and could not be happier!

So, in short, this method of “evangelism” or “counsel” is just to keep people from finding the Truth for themselves. I thank God every day that I kept questioning. :slight_smile:


#12

Some denominations (Calvary Chapel may be one - you mentioned Calvary Tucson) have simplistic, even magical beliefs about the power of words. To question, doubt, express disapproval or any negative emotion is bad because it empowers evil and fails to „name and claim“ the positive.

The consequences of this belief are heartbreaking. Imagine going to your death, like Tammy Faye Mexner (Bakker), with Word Faith beliefs instead of a belief in the redemptive and reparative value of suffering:
christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=2591


#13

We have already established that, aside from the Catholic Church producing Scripture, there is more Scripture and more Gospel read in Mass than in your services. You have said that. Indeed, you questioned why we should read the Gospel at all, being saved already.

We do? I’m Baptist, which you would consider “protestant” and I’ve never heard this.

Here’s some sloppy reasoning—since you haven’t heard of something, it isn’t true?

In fact, if this is true, then why do we put so much emphasis on things like creeds and confessions and doctrinal accountability?

You don’t. We’ve had a whole series of threads about the fact that the sole common denominator amongst Protestantism is the Nicene Creed, which of course is Catholic.

Would you mind demonstrating your claim?

Sure. Read the “What’s the Biggest Difference Between Protestants and Catholics” thread. Or go down the road and visit your Pentecostal brothers, ask them to preach one Sunday on the Baptist creed (which creed do you hold? Baptists have several, don’t they? Which one has authority recognized by ALL Baptists? As a matter of fact, who’s the top Baptist clergyman?)

And where does the Bible get geography wrong?

For starters, how about where Satan takes Christ up on a mountain to show him “all the kingdoms of the Earth”? Given the impossibility geographically of such a vantage point, even where the mountain on the moon, the fundamentalist needs to do some somersaults here, right?

Would you please give a couple of examples of these “inconsistencies”?

Sure. Here are three.

  1. We are saved by Scripture alone—and yet Protestants disagree vehemently as to what Scripture means and what Scripture to use. Is salvation a crapshoot?

  2. We are saved by faith alone—and yet Christ throughout Scripture tells us not what to believe, but what to do. James 2 gives a long rundown of the importance of good works. In fact, “faith alone” only appears within James, where its point is to say “not faith alone.”

  3. Christ’s Church is invisible—therefore, when Christ tells us we are to “go tell the Church” when our brother persists in error in Matthew 18, where precisely are we to go?

Or, for the Roman Catholic, blind obedience to the men who run his religion.

Who are these Roman Catholics you keep talking about? Oh, for the rude, who aspire to lead Christians but refuse to act like one.

As for “butts in the pews”, I’m curious to know, if that’s true, why so many Protestant and Baptist churches don’t advertise themselves or actively try to recruit members.

Pretty funny for a guy who quoted the size of his congregation as a source of pride and discussed its growth.

I doubt any Catholic on this Forum knows how big his parish is. Since there are 1 billion Catholics in the world, we seem to do alright without advertising. But hey, maybe in 2,000 years the Atomic Church of Brosam will be up to a billion too, right?


#14

Let’s say for a moment that this is true. Do you just read a few verses from the Bible? Or do you follow the Biblical model of expositional preaching?

You have said that. Indeed, you questioned why we should read the Gospel at all, being saved already.

Actually, this is a lie. What I said is that I don’t understand why Roman Catholics feel the need to preach the Gospel in every mass when they believe that every Roman Catholic is already saved.

I love to see people reading, preaching, and studying the Gospels. I just don’t understand why you insist on preaching the Gospel of salvation to those who are already saved.

Of course, I know what you mean. You’re only saying this because you don’t know the difference between the Gospel of salvation and the Synoptic Gospels. That’s a very common mistake for someone who doesn’t study the scriptures to make. Don’t feel too bad about it. You’re not the only one.

Here’s some sloppy reasoning—since you haven’t heard of something, it isn’t true?

Boy, that is sloppy reasoning. I’m sure glad I didn’t say that.

You don’t.

Actually, this is a lie. We are very strong proponents of the creeds and confessions of Christianity and we’re also very strong on doctrinal accountability.

We’ve had a whole series of threads about the fact that the sole common denominator amongst Protestantism is the Nicene Creed, which of course is Catholic.

And another lie. Protestants affirm the Nicene Creed.

Or go down the road and visit your Pentecostal brothers, ask them to preach one Sunday on the Baptist creed (which creed do you hold?

Actually, I just preached in an Assembly of God church about three weeks ago and we have an AoG preacher who’s taught a couple of classes at our church.

I would also point out that there are many pentecostals who are Baptists and vice versa.

Baptists have several, don’t they?

The only one I’ve ever heard of are the Baptist Distinctives.

Which one has authority recognized by ALL Baptists?

The one in the Bible.

As a matter of fact, who’s the top Baptist clergyman?

Depends on what you mean by “top clergyman”.

For starters, how about where Satan takes Christ up on a mountain to show him “all the kingdoms of the Earth”?

And you believe this is literal…why?

Given the impossibility geographically of such a vantage point, even where the mountain on the moon, the fundamentalist needs to do some somersaults here, right?

Only if you assume that it is literal.

Sure. Here are three.

  1. We are saved by Scripture alone—and yet Protestants disagree vehemently as to what Scripture means and what Scripture to use. Is salvation a crapshoot?

What Protestant ever said we’re saved by scripture?

  1. We are saved by faith alone—and yet Christ throughout Scripture tells us not what to believe, but what to do. James 2 gives a long rundown of the importance of good works. In fact, “faith alone” only appears within James, where its point is to say “not faith alone.”

It is up to you to show that we’re saved by works.

  1. Christ’s Church is invisible—therefore, when Christ tells us we are to “go tell the Church” when our brother persists in error in Matthew 18, where precisely are we to go?

Pretty funny for a guy who quoted the size of his congregation as a source of pride and discussed its growth.

Another lie. Never said this.

But hey, maybe in 2,000 years the Atomic Church of Brosam will be up to a billion too, right?


#15

As for “butts in the pews”, I’m curious to know, if that’s true, why so many Protestant and Baptist churches don’t advertise themselves or actively try to recruit members.

Here in East Texas, they do. Boy do they ever!


#16

A couple of examples from first Alpha small group my wife attended.Can Muslims be saved? The leaders says, “No, they believe in Allah who is a god invented by Mohhamed.” My daugher says,“Doesn’t the word Allah mean God when translated?” Leader: No. My wife says,“I can’t accept that some Jews and Muslims are not saved.” The leader says, “No, Jews are not saved either. Bring your Proof that they are to next session. I will have to go to the Word.”

At second Alpha Group( On a thread in the Scripture forum I had asked how are the words Lord and God rendered in an Arabic translation of the Christian Bible? The reply by a person who owned one as well as other folks was “Allah.”

At the second session. The Word brought in was" I am the way, the truth, and the life." This second session was joined by a minister from another church in town who knew a lot of scripture verse. He had a document that allegedly proved Muslims do not believe in God. (A handout was passed.) But isn’t the God of the Muslims, Jews and Christians the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? No the Muslims are lying or misled when they say this. Well, how about the Jews? Well, since they did not know or believe on Jesus only eleven Jews in all of History have been saved, the eleven Apostles. What about Abraham, David, Moses, and Elijah etc.? No they weren’t saved. Well what about these quotes from the O.T. that would show they were? (My wife quoted a number of them.) You know we don’t much believe the O.T. can be depended upon anymore. It ended up that five or six out of the nine of those present said they did not accept that Jews and Muslims could not be saved

Perhaps the minister was a Dipensationalist. I understand that they do not use Scripture from dispensations older than the current one. Anyway, I could hardly believe my ears when my wife recounted these discussions.

No wonder they don’t want questions.


#17

As we’ve told you before, and provided links as evidence, at every Mass 2 OT passages are read at length (typically chapter length), a Psalm is sung or read, and a Gospel passage is read (typically chapter length). This is followed by a short homily where the priest or bishop expounds upon the readings, often to show the linkages between them, often to show how the readings pertain to Christian life, often to challenge us to fulfill the promise of the reading.

Actually, this is a lie. What I said is that I don’t understand why Roman Catholics feel the need to preach the Gospel in every mass when they believe that every Roman Catholic is already saved.

Given your continuing inability to speak truthfully, and how many call you on it, you should probably watch whom you call a liar. Not every thread you post in gets deleted—you have a track record. A poor one.

I love to see people reading, preaching, and studying the Gospels. I just don’t understand why you insist on preaching the Gospel of salvation to those who are already saved.

Because we love the Gospel. Why not take it off the shelf?

Of course, I know what you mean. You’re only saying this because you don’t know the difference between the Gospel of salvation and the Synoptic Gospels. That’s a very common mistake for someone who doesn’t study the scriptures to make. Don’t feel too bad about it. You’re not the only one.

Really? In which Bible might I find the Gospel according to Salvation?

Perhaps if you demonstrated more familiarity with Scripture in your posts you would have some credibility. I haven’t seen you do anything but post a handful of sentences. Perhaps you could present Scripture in excerpts longer than a fortune cookie?

Actually, this is a lie. We are very strong proponents of the creeds and confessions of Christianity and we’re also very strong on doctrinal accountability.

What are the creeds and confessions of Christianity? Where are they to be found? What is doctrinal accountability? How is it enforced?

And another lie. Protestants affirm the Nicene Creed.

Wow, you’re really racking up the “bearing false witness” points today!

I did lead the thread which determined that very fact, you know. And, as a Baptist, you might be aware that some Baptists refuse the Nicene and embrace the Apostle’s Creed instead, preferring the primitive formulation. Did you really attend seminary?

Actually, I just preached in an Assembly of God church about three weeks ago and we have an AoG preacher who’s taught a couple of classes at our church.

Okay. Did you preach on the Baptist creed?

I would also point out that there are many pentecostals who are Baptists and vice versa.

Which flavor of Baptist? My wife is an ex-Pentecostal; the Baptists here have nothing to do with 'em.

The only one I’ve ever heard of are the Baptist Distinctives.

I will let your fellow Baptists educate you.

The one in the Bible.

And where may I find the Book of Baptist Distinctives in the Bible?

Depends on what you mean by “top clergyman”.

The one Baptist clergyman alive today whose hermeneutics all Baptists hold to be true.

And you believe this is literal…why?

I don’t. Catholics aren’t fundamentalists.

Only if you assume that it is literal.

Fundamentalists who believe in inerrancy and literal interpretation of the Bible do.

What Protestant ever said we’re saved by scripture?

Try a search on the Forum. The sola scriptura threads are a good place to start.

Now, since your question is again insincere, let me predict your response: “Oh, they’re not a real Protestant”. We’ve seen it before; lacks even novelty.

It is up to you to show that we’re saved by works.

Would be if I said we’re saved by works. Catholics, as we’ve shown again and again, believe we are saved by the grace of God. So why do you lie about Catholic teaching?

  1. Christ’s Church is invisible—therefore, when Christ tells us we are to “go tell the Church” when our brother persists in error in Matthew 18, where precisely are we to go?

Another lie. Never said this.

You did. You claimed your congregation has grown to 160+ in one of your first threads. You listed the previous number, the new number. It was in the “Evangelism question” thread you managed to get deleted.

You strain charity, brother.


#18

To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant
~John Henry Cardinal Newman

It does not disturb me that the Bible gets geography wrong in a couple of places. It does not disturb me that the Bible gets its history wrong in a couple of places. I am a Catholic; such inerrancy is not required.

The Catholic Church teaches the Bible is in fact entirely inerrant. The idea that it is only inerrant on matters of faith but fallible on “scientific” matters was condemned.
The part about Jesus being taken on a high mountain to see all the kingdoms of the earth does not mean He literally saw every square inch of earth, it simply means either all the land known to the Jews at that time or was taken to a hight where the vantage point showed all the land surrounding Him.

Thus, a Protestant who seeks the historical Church (asks history questions) or seeks the fullness of Christian theology (asks theological questions) will tend to find more compelling answers in the Catholic Church than elsewhere. That is the truth underscoring the testimony you hear here from converts and reverts.

Amen!


#19

Usually it’s one OT reading, a Psalm, an Epistle reading, and a Gospel reading. Sorry, just wanted to point that out for those who may wonder…:slight_smile:


#20

It is never a sin and sign of poor faith to ask questions, in fact the Church teaches it is the duty of every human to ask questions so that they may discover the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth or in the case of Catholics to grow in their faith.


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