Interesting Website: Jews Against Zionism

jewsagainstzionism.com/

Interesting.
I’ve never seen this before. It’s an organization of Orthodox Jewish people who are opposed to Zionism. Articles, news, commentary, etc.

Jaypeeto4

Reminds me of the book The Chosen as this very thing came up.

Jay, were you by any chance at the March for Life yesterday in Washington, D.C.? The reason I ask is because at the march there were a few Orthodox rabbis handing out flyers from the organization “Jews United Against Zionism”; before that I had never heard of them either.

[quote=Jaypeeto4]jewsagainstzionism.com/

Interesting.
I’ve never seen this before. It’s an organization of Orthodox Jewish people who are opposed to Zionism. Articles, news, commentary, etc.

Jaypeeto4
[/quote]

Peace

Here another interseting one :

jews-for-allah.org/

Peace

It has nothing to do with Islam. Since the beginning of Zionism the most orthodox Jews have been against it. They saw it as human beings taking something God has to do himself into their hands.

[quote=Jaypeeto4]jewsagainstzionism.com/

Interesting.
I’ve never seen this before. It’s an organization of Orthodox Jewish people who are opposed to Zionism. Articles, news, commentary, etc.

Jaypeeto4
[/quote]

Zionism has been hotly debated among Jews of all “denominations” or traditions since it was first seriously proposed in the 19th century, especially among American Jews, where it became a divisive issue that even split some congregations. Rabbi David Silver of Cleveland, a staunch proponent of Zionism and the modern state of Israel, and his congregation come to mind. among Orthodox there is an objection because opponents believe the restoration of Israel will occur in God’s time, not man’s and that it will be messianic event, not a political one.

among political conservatives the socialist aspects of life and politics that developed in the kibbutz and have dominated politics in Israel is objectionable. There are conflicts among those from German, Eastern European and non-European Jewish communities, who object to the dominence and influence of Jewish leaders from certain countries in the Zionist movement and subsequently in Israeli life, culture and politics.

Hi all!

Sigh

That website is affiliated with groups such as Neturei Karta (an Aramaic phrase meaning "Guardians of the City; Karta being the Aramaic equivalent of the Punic Cart, as in Carthage) and the Satmar Hasidic movement. The Neturei Karta is a t-i-n-y group whose extremist views place it outside the mainstream of ultra-orthodoxy, to say nothing of modern orthodoxy (scroll to the bottom of jewishmediaresources.com/article/439). Indeed, the extremism & viciousness of their rhetoric and their ability to generate publicity for themselves are in inverse proportion to their size, influence and relative importance within the ultra-orthodox community.

The vast majority of modern orthodox Jews (like myself) do support the State of Israel. Modern orthodoxy is very pro-Zionist & very supportive of the State of Israel & has always been so. It is our ultra-orthodox ([haredi in Hebrew) brethren who span the spectrum of pro-Zionist, to non-Zionist, to downright anti-Zionist (even militantly so). But the ultra-orthodox world, particularly here in Israel, has , in recent years seen a shift from anti-Zionism more towards non-Zionism (although there certainly are plenty of militantly anti-Israel ultra-orthodox Jews). This has been partly due to events such as tinyurl.com/65txd which hit the ultra-orthodox community here very hard. A perfect illustration of this shift was the fact that in May 2003, a prominent ultra-orthodox Jew (Yehuda Meshi-Zahav, the founder of the ZAKA organization, the guys who pick up body parts after bombings & car accidents; they sent a delegation to Thailand after the trunami) was invited to light one of the torches kicking off Israel’s independence Day celebrations; the symbolism of this was not to be missed. Historically, ultra-orthodox opposition to the State was never monolithic (although it is the extremists who, being extremists, generate/d the most publicity for themselves & their views, with the media, being what it is, lapping it up); I cite Rabbi Avraham Karelitz’s modus vivendi with Ben-Gurion (tinyurl.com/4hd4f) & the fact that one ultra-orthodox party or other has almost always been in whatever coalition government happens to be ruling Israel at the moment.

Neturei Karta, by continuing to adhere to its extremist views even as Palestinian terrorism has hit hard at the ultra-orthodox community, has become further isolated & marginalized within the ultra-orthodox community. They were a marginal group to begin with & they have become even more marginalized in recent years, all their pathological shrieking that they embody the essence of normative orthodoxy notwithstanding. They are legends in their own minds (but in nobody else’s). Opponents of Israel have seized on them and fawn all over them because NK’s views neatly dovetail with their own.

(I have referred to the Israeli-Palestinia conflict to the minimum that I felt necessary & relevant. One of my very few cyberrules is that I will not discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict online.)

(cont.)*

(cont.)

I cite:

Jews who criticize or oppose Zionism are usually Orthodox and maintain that Israel can only be regained miraculously. They view the present state as a blasphemous human attempt to usurp G-d’s role, and they work to dismantle Israel. However, unlike many gentile anti-Zionists, they firmly believe in the Jewish right to Israel, but only at that future time of redemption. The best known of the religious anti-Zionists are the Neturei Karta.

Two common religious grounds are typically given for anti-Zionism One is that today’s Zionism is a secular Zionism, packed with non-Jewish influences, and lacking key features like Moshiach [the Messiah] and the rebuilt Temple. Adherents to this position are more on the non-Zionist rather than anti-Zionist side. The other reason is that the Talmud (Meseches Kesuvos, 111a), as part of a discussion of certain Torah verses mentioning oaths, states that when Israel went into the second exile, there were three vows between Heaven and Earth:

  1. Israel would not “go up like a wall” [conquer Eretz Yisrael by massive force].

  2. G-d made Israel swear that they would not rebel against the nations of the world [would obey the governments in the exile].

  3. G-d made the non-Jews swear not to oppress Israel “too much” [translation of phrase *yoter midai

].

Groups accepting these positions are more on the anti-Zionist side.

The religious counter-reply to the above is that secular Zionism is a preliminary stage of religious Zionism, and that the vows no longer apply since the gentiles violated their part (by such actions as the Roman persecutions, the Spanish Inquisition and the Nazi Holocaust). The Balfour Declaration of 1917 and the United Nations partition vote of 1947 are also regarded as having given permission to the Jews to reestablish the state by the non-Jewish rulers of the area. Once this permission was granted it could not be revoked. It should also be noted that the oaths cited above are only mentioned as a side point in one place in a discussion in the Gemara, and as the viewpoint of an individual. Many people feel that they do not apply in any case.

[quote=stillsmallvoice](I would add that the context in which this discussion takes place is homiletic, not legal. What the Netorei Karta have done is to take something waaay out of context and misrepresent it (purport that the homiletic view of one man is normative Jewish doctrine binding on all) in order to justify their own extremist, minority views. This is what doesn’t wash. “Many people feel that they do not apply in any case.” Just about the only people who think that they do apply are groups like the Netorei Karta, the Satmar hassidim, etc., who are a very small minority.)
[/quote]

Some Religious Zionist Jews see the formation of the secular state as accelerating the process of redemption, with themselves playing a major role in doing G-d’s will by serving the state, whose creation is often seen as miraculous.

So-called “non-Zionist” Jews are pleased that Israel exists from a practical standpoint-as a haven for oppressed Jews and as a land imbued with holiness well-suited for Torah study. But they don’t generally assign religious significance to the formation of the modern state, and often decry aspects of its secular culture.

Link: jewishvirtuallibrary.org…ti-Zionism.html

(cont.)

(cont.)

Part of the intense animus that Neturei Karta and other groups (such as the Satmar hassidic movement, ferinstance) have against Zionism & the State of Israel is psychological mechanism by which they seek to project onto Zionism & the State of Israel their own feelings of terrible guilt that so many ultra-orthodox Jews perished in the gas chambers because they were told by their rabbinical leaders in the interwar period not to go to the “profane” Zionist state-in-the-making in British Mandatory Palestine. And Neturei Karta then has the unmitigated gall (i.e. chutzpah) to accuse the Zionists of complicity in provoking the Holocaust??!! Shame on them!!

A seminal figure in shaping religious attitudes to the Zionist project and the subsequent State of Israel was Rabbi Avraham Kook (ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/kook.htm). The foregoing link is a short biographical sketch. I’d like to quote one excerpt:

Above all, Rav Kook pulsated with a sense of the Divine. And, he sought to reach those who had strayed. He once quoted the rabbinic dictum that one should embrace with the right hand and rebuff with the left and commented that he was fully capable of rejecting, but since there were enough rejecters, he was fulfilling the role of embracer.

(What a pity that all Netorei Karta can do is shriek their rejectionism as fanatically as possible.) Rabbi Yehuda Amital (a founder of the moderate religious Zionist Meimad movement; see meimad.org.il/) wrote the following essay (entitled The Religious Significance of the State of Israel) in which he discusses many of Rabbi Kook’s views:vbm-torah.org/yyerush/atz59.htm.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv (who is feeling Black and Gold all over!) :wave:

stillsmallvoice,
Is there any truth to the group’s claims that the early 20th century Zionists deliberately fomented antiSemitism in Europe in order to manipulate Jewish people into moving to Palestine? The group actually accuses the Zionists of this and even claims to be quoting from them, too.

Personally, I find the notion of Jews being AGAINST Israel about as sensible as Christians being AGAINST Bethlehem. I don’t understand the mentality.

Love,
Jaypeeto3

Hi all!

[quote=Jaypeeto3]Is there any truth to the group’s claims that the early 20th century Zionists deliberately fomented antiSemitism in Europe in order to manipulate Jewish people into moving to Palestine? The group actually accuses the Zionists of this and even claims to be quoting from them, too.
[/quote]

Utter poppycock (I was tempted to use a somewhat cruder term having to do with male bovine excrement but CAF is a family forum! :slight_smile: )!

These people have been sniffing some bad chicken soup.

Be well!

ssv :wave: http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nfl/teams/1/80x60/pit.gif

I once heard a rabbi speaking. He said that the Scriptures say that the Messiah would bring the people back to Israel. He said that the Messiah has not come yet. He concluded that the return to Israel and the nation should not be happening at this time, and should happen when the messiah comes.

Admittedly the rabbi was working with Yasser Arafat, but I thought he made a very valid point.

Any comments?

yeah well its true. many jews bnelive that the messaiah will come in his own time and that god will restore the people to israel then. the idea is that the jews have no business reclaiming the Land beuase doing so would be tentamount to saying that they dont trust God to do it, plus currentyly they are in exhile and so have no business going back while they are still being punished.

Hi all!

[quote=asteroid]Admittedly the rabbi was working with Yasser Arafat, but I thought he made a very valid point.
[/quote]

No, with all due respect, as I’ve tried to point out in my first (3-part) post on this thread, this rabbi, who (since he hobnobbed with Yasser Arafat) was with Netorei Karta, holds to an extreme minority view. He has no pont at all! :slight_smile:

Be well!

ssv :wave: http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nfl/teams/1/80x60/pit.gif

Thanks for the site, i knew that there are many jews who are against zionism, and israel, such as NaturelKarta

Hi all!

[quote=PPatience]i knew that there are many jews who are against zionism, and israel, such as NaturelKarta
[/quote]

I would respectfully correct the foregoing. As I noted above, “Neturei Karta is a t-i-n-y group whose extremist views place it outside the mainstream of ultra-orthodoxy, to say nothing of modern orthodoxy…Indeed, the extremism & viciousness of their rhetoric and their ability to generate publicity for themselves are in inverse proportion to their size, influence and relative importance within the ultra-orthodox community…They were a marginal group to begin with & they have become even more marginalized in recent years, all their pathological shrieking that they embody the essence of normative orthodoxy notwithstanding. They are legends in their own minds (but in nobody else’s).”

PPatience, I should thank you. You have proven my point that, “Opponents of Israel have seized on them and fawn all over them because NK’s views neatly dovetail with their own.”

Be well!

ssv :wave: http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nfl/teams/1/80x60/pit.gif

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