Invincible Ignorance and Salvation for jpete and all interested


#1

Della:

I love talking with you as you really do have a passion for your faith. I know we’ve had our debates (and I’m sure this post may start another one) but I do really enjoy talking about Jesus Christ with you (even if I am Protestant and you are Catholic we do have that one thing in common).

Thank you for your kind words. I know you are eqully passionate, if not more so than I, which I deeply respect. :slight_smile:

Now as far as the idea of invincible ignorance goes, I do have a HUGE issue with that. We are commanded to go to the ends of the earth. We are told to make disciples of ALL nations. We are told to carry our cross with Christ. We are told that true love is sacrificing our life for another (John wrote in his epistle).

We certainly are! And Catholic missionaries have been doing so since Pentecost, and continue to take the Gospel to all the ends of the earth.

Yes, you are correct in that Christ’s redemptive work on the cross works for all people. People of any background can come to know Christ but the only way of salvation presented in the Bible is that of Jesus Christ. We read that the only way to the Father is through the Son; so how can someone who does not know the Son get to the Father? If God meant for His mercy to be presented through other means, why would it be so clear in Scripture that Christ is the truth and life?

But God’s mercy is presented as being for all people of good will. You just aren’t as familiar with the passages that teach this as those that talk about taking the message to the world. It’s no uncommon for us all to pay attention to those things that grab our hearts instead of looking at the whole of what is presented in the Bible.

continued next post…


#2

Now I emphasized both these parts for reasons. First off, there are many nations that are unable to be reached or that are hostile environments to the Gospel; does this mean we shouldn’t go there? No! We should still go to open the doors to Christ. Surely the world was not open to the Gospel in the days of Paul. He didn’t say, “I’ll wait until the Romans will let Christians be free.” Paul went and was imprisoned, beaten, flogged, shipwrecked, etc. Peter also preached the Gospel and was crucified. John preached and was exiled (after being punished and boiled alive; surviving). Just because a place isn’t open doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t go there!

And many, many Catholics have suffered that fate for taking the Gospel where it wasn’t wanted down through the centuries. You’re preaching to the choir here. :wink:

Now we read that there is ONE definitive way to God and that is through Jesus Christ. The Catechism mentions other religions such as Judaism and Islam. Judaism continued believing that the Messiah had not yet arrived and Islam believes that God could not bear a child. These two religions have direct access to the knowledge of Christ and openly reject it. The live in accord to their doctrines passed on to them but they ignore the risen Son of God!

There is only one definitive way to God through Jesus Christ. No Catholic would say otherwise, so, once again, we completely agree. What you are not seeing is that although religions may have rejected Christ, the individuals who believe in those religions may not–not with a full understanding of what they are doing, that is. God does not hold people accountable for what they did not know and could not know because of their circumstances. If he did, he’d be unjust.

continued next post…


#3

I must say that I don’t believe to condemn others. I must say that this is the reason that I am an appointed Missionary to leave in October to an unreached, unopen; people group. I say that by NOT bringing the Gospel to them I am keeping Christ away from them and thus condemning them to God’s eternal judgment. They have never been presented the choice to accept or reject Christ; who according to the Bible is the ONLY way to the Father.

I certainly believe Christ is the only means of salvation, but I cannot reject the belief that Christ saves those whom he pleases who we may not think can be saved because we don’t see their inner lives–their hearts, their intentions, only God can do that. All who will be saved will be saved through Christ and no one else. He will be the judge of all mankind and no one else. Therefore, it is up to him to decide who was for him and who was against him, not us. That is all we are saying here. Not that salvation is in any other name.

Even if you say that you believe in invincible ignorance; can you be 100% certain in that teaching? I can’t but I can be 100% certain that belief and obedience in Christ Jesus WILL save the souls of men and bring them to the Father. One way is taught by man as the Catechism is made by man through Tradition; the other way is taught by Christ in the Gospel as presented through God!

Yes, I can be 100% certain that Christ will save those who he judges worthy, which is what the teaching is about, not about who has and who hasn’t heard his name. And the Catechism is teaching Tradition–Sacred Tradition passed down from Christ to his Apostles to the bishops they and their successors have chosen through apostolic succession–the laying on of hands. Sacred Tradition is the whole of the teaching of Christ, and that includes not excludes the Bible.

Have you ever heard the term negligable homicide? In our legal system it means that somebody died due to our neglect of doing something. Well this is how I feel about people doing nothing when they know the truth of Christ! It is eternal negligible homicide. Because I know something that can save someone but do nothing about it, I am responsible for their demise; ETERNALLY! I don’t care if it means one day walking into the middle of Meccha as a Christian, the world is to be presented the Gospel because the Gospel is the means to Salvation. It is the Good News of Christ.

If the Catholic Church were not sending out missionaries but resting on its laurels then it would be guilty of negligence, but it is sending out missionaries, as well as pastoring parishes around the world. We don’t at all believe that people ought not to be told about Christ because of the teaching of invincible ignorance. Invincible ignorance is no excuse for not following the will of God for each of our lives. I know of no faithful Catholic who thinks it does.

I weep for the billions around the world that do not know Christ, I pray that more Missionaries would be raised up to present the Gospel to them. I pray that Christians would stop worrying about being comfortable and walk with the Lord in the ways of the Apostles, not worrying about where they are going but carrying their cross with Christ preaching his message of love. Satan has us in his grasp saying, we should not worry about it because God will handle it; when God clearly instructed us that our love for him may have us walking headfirst to death in this world. Whoever loses his life for Christ’s sake will find it.

I think you would agree that not everyone is called to be a foreign missionary. Not even the leaders of your denomination teach that, do they? Being a missionary to a far off place filled with the possibility of danger is a high calling that we aren’t all called to do. If we were, I’d be out there right now, but God called me to be a wife and homemaker who does a bit of apologetics online. I am also actively involved in my parish in two different organizations, one with a decidedly spiritual emphasis and another that is more social service oriented, and in both a lot of good is being done for God’s kingdom.

My soul weeps for those people and I pray that they will be reached.

Mine too. I would have every person on earth hear of Christ and his love for them that caused him to die on the cross for their redemption and salvation. But, I will leave to God the judging of who will and who won’t be saved since he does honor those who cannot know of him but live their lives according to the grace they have been given, as Paul tells us, in love of God and neighbor for which there is ample biblical support, if you wish to seek it out instead of believing that God automatically condemns the ignorant and the innocent.


#4

“We . . . know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know him can be saved through him.”–C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity.


#5

[quote=arieh0310]“We . . . know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know him can be saved through him.”–C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity.
[/quote]

Good old Lewis. As always, straight to the point and insightful. Thanks for sharing his words. :slight_smile:


#6

If one was to thoroughly read scripture one would know that faith in Christ is most important but one can lose that faith through sin.

We are saved through faith, baptism and goodworks. All in scripture and most quoted from the mouth of Christ himself.


#7

Hey Della (and others)

This is a good thread so far jampacked with tons of good information and fun stuff.

“But God’s mercy is presented as being for all people of good will. You just aren’t as familiar with the passages that teach this as those that talk about taking the message to the world. It’s no uncommon for us all to pay attention to those things that grab our hearts instead of looking at the whole of what is presented in the Bible.”

Can you please let me see where this is referred to in Scripture? I know you quoted Acts 10:34 before but I would like to see something else as that was when Peter was being disobedient to bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles (Cornelius). That passage reflects to me that the Gospel can be preached to others but it was only after it was accepted that the Spirit descended upon the people there.

“If he did, he’d be unjust.”

Well we know that God cannot be unjust. From the standpoint of Christ, he died so others can come to God through him. Would it be just to allow others mercy even if they don’t know his name or its glory? God has a plan for redemption and for the Gospel to reach all nations, his means of getting it there is through Missions.

By following other faiths such as Islam and Judaism people are openly rejecting God. God indeed had a Son who was Messiah and Jews reject that idea and say the Lion of Judah has not yet come. Muslims believe that God due to his power could never have a son and therefore Jesus (Issa in Arabic) could never be anything more than a prophet (lower than Muhommed sp.) This is also openly rejecting Christ. It is in there doctrine! Whether they live good lives in accordance to us they are still turning from God.

Let me also say this, if we never had any commandments written down on what is and what is not a sin; could we still sin? Of course, because we still turn away from God. Just because we didn’t know God doesn’t mean that we didn’t sin and it doesn’t mean that anyone can’t. Everyone is still a sinner and needs redemption. God’s plan for redemption was the Cross, after that it was us pointing to the Cross in Missions. If God gave Cornelius a message in Acts and communicated with him, why did Peter still need to present the Gospel? Because even though God communicated with Cornelius, he still needed his redemption just as every man, woman, nation and tribe needs theirs

I really don’t think a just God would let His Son die if there were another means to Salvation. This is coming awfully close to universalism and to me, its saying that a devout Muslim is right as is a devout Jew as is a devout Christian as all can receive Salvation.

“If the Catholic Church were not sending out missionaries but resting on its laurels then it would be guilty of negligence, but it is sending out missionaries, as well as pastoring parishes around the world.”

As a Church I never said the Catholic Church didn’t send out Missionaries. (If I came off like that I am sorry). One of my role-models is a Catholic Missionary (Mother Theresa). She was one of the most humble women the world ever saw. In her frailty and environment, she radiated Christ’s love. What I was saying is how as a Protestant I feel that (for me) I am being negligent. This is because I have been called to Missions.

“I’d be out there right now, but God called me to be a wife and homemaker who does a bit of apologetics online. I am also actively involved in my parish in two different organizations, one with a decidedly spiritual emphasis and another that is more social service oriented, and in both a lot of good is being done for God’s kingdom”

And I commend that you are doing things to advance God’s Kingdom…I said it before, I admire that passion (and I wish that I saw more of that passion in the members of the Parish by me; unfortunately it seems to be cafeteria-like to me). I also agree that not everyone is called to foreign Missions. I do believe that everyone does have a role to play in Missions, however. Either to be there or be supportive in whatever means possible (prayer, giving, etc).

In closing, I will say that I don’t believe that I am playing God and condemning people. I look at Scripture and see that God chose a certain people (Israel)…after that he let His word reach others (Gentiles) and wants it to reach all. I know that belief in Christ is the way to eternal life. I can’t say that I know God’s character well enough to know if he will have mercy on those who do not know Him (he is merciful in presenting us Christ and just as well). I would much rather pay a penalty for my knowledge of the Gospel so that others will DEFINATELY hear his words than assume that I know the character of God enough to define what just and merciful mean in HIS eyes.


#8

Jpete, generally there is little that I disagree with in your post per se.

However, I want to introduce some thoughts that are given insufficient attention in your post.

First of all, Christians adhere to and worship a God the Creator, God the Son, Savior and Redeemer, and God the Holy Spirit, perfectly united in one God.

Our Jewish and Muslim brethren also adhere to and worship the God of Abraham as do we. Unfortunately their understanding of the Triune God is incomplete. But at the same time, our understanding of God in all His infinite glory and majesty is also imperfect and incomplete. To have perfect and complete knowledge would require us to be God.

The Catholic teaching in this regard is that our more complete revelation and understanding of God gives us a path for salvation to which we are obliged to follow. Our charity toward our Jewish and Muslim brethren is acknowledgement that our understanding of God is imperfect and incomplete and thus our understanding of their path and opportunity for salvation is imperfect and incomplete. Thus, becuase of ignorance, it is presumptious to assert that we know precisely how our Jewish and Muslim brethren will be recieved by God in judgment.

Furthermore, I’m not sure it is accurate to say that our Muslim and Jewish breathren are “rejecting God” as they do aspire to follow and worship the God of Abraham and not some pagan God. Again, we don’t know because of our imperfect knowledge God’s reaction to their rejection of Christ. We know because of the depth of God’s revelation to Christians this is a grave matter. But again, Catholic teaching of mortal sin requires them to reject Christ with full knowledge and understanding of the consequences of their rejection. Again, we don’t know because aren’t God and can’t see into the depth of their hearts whether this rejection is done with full knowledge and understanding of the consequences of their rejection.


#9

[quote=jpete79]Hey Della (and others)

This is a good thread so far jampacked with tons of good information and fun stuff.
[/quote]

I’m glad to hear you say so. I’m afraid I had to edit some of your comments for length only. I know perfectly well that you were not saying the Church hasn’t sent out missionaires or that being involved in our parishes/churches isn’t valuable for the effort of bringing Christ to all men. :tiphat:

“But God’s mercy is presented as being for all people of good will. You just aren’t as familiar with the passages that teach this as those that talk about taking the message to the world. It’s no uncommon for us all to pay attention to those things that grab our hearts instead of looking at the whole of what is presented in the Bible.”

Can you please let me see where this is referred to in Scripture? I know you quoted Acts 10:34 before but I would like to see something else as that was when Peter was being disobedient to bringing the Gospel to the Gentiles (Cornelius). That passage reflects to me that the Gospel can be preached to others but it was only after it was accepted that the Spirit descended upon the people there.

Here is another:

Romans 2:5b-11 (ASV)
(5b) [On the day of judgment God] (6) will render to every man according to his works: (7) to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: (8) but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, (9) tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; (10) but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek: (11) for there is no respect of persons with God.

“If he did, he’d be unjust.”

Well we know that God cannot be unjust. From the standpoint of Christ, he died so others can come to God through him. Would it be just to allow others mercy even if they don’t know his name or its glory? God has a plan for redemption and for the Gospel to reach all nations, his means of getting it there is through Missions.

God isn’t bound by our efforts alone. He is capable of drawing hearts to him no matter where they are or what they’ve been taught to believe. They don’t have to know about his glory to know that they are supposed to act according to natural law, which is the law God put into the hearts of all men, but which we can ignore or harden our hearts against. Those who don’t harden their hearts against God’s natural law will be judged with more mercy than those who do, no matter what they knew or didn’t know about Christ.

continued next post…


#10

continued from previous post…

By following other faiths such as Islam and Judaism people are openly rejecting God. God indeed had a Son who was Messiah and Jews reject that idea and say the Lion of Judah has not yet come. Muslims believe that God due to his power could never have a son and therefore Jesus (Issa in Arabic) could never be anything more than a prophet (lower than Muhommed sp.) This is also openly rejecting Christ. It is in there doctrine! Whether they live good lives in accordance to us they are still turning from God.

You cannot make the assumption that by following what they’ve been taught all their lives and believed to be true that they are deliberately rejecting Christ when they don’t really know Christ as he is. This is a barrier to belief, but not a barrier to living lives according to the graces God gives them. Of course it would be best for them to know Christ and have every opportunity to love and serve him knowingly and with all their hearts, but Jesus will not reject those who through no fault of their own could never know who he really is who have pleased God by living uprightly as they understand it. This is no “get out of hell free” card. Without the grace of baptism and the other Sacraments, which actually do to our souls what they say they do, it is virtually impossible to please God, which is why we send missionaire, but it is possible for any human being to want to live for God as he understands it.

Let me also say this, if we never had any commandments written down on what is and what is not a sin; could we still sin? Of course, because we still turn away from God. Just because we didn’t know God doesn’t mean that we didn’t sin and it doesn’t mean that anyone can’t. Everyone is still a sinner and needs redemption. God’s plan for redemption was the Cross, after that it was us pointing to the Cross in Missions. If God gave Cornelius a message in Acts and communicated with him, why did Peter still need to present the Gospel? Because even though God communicated with Cornelius, he still needed his redemption just as every man, woman, nation and tribe needs theirs

But we have been redeemed. That part was finished on the cross. Every person on the earth has been redeemed by Christ, which is why salvation is open to all through him who live their lives to please him. But, that is no easy task even for us who know the Lord, it must be terribly hard for those who don’t. Still, salvation is in Christ alone because he alone died to redeem us, do you see that?

I really don’t think a just God would let His Son die if there were another means to Salvation. This is coming awfully close to universalism and to me, its saying that a devout Muslim is right as is a devout Jew as is a devout Christian as all can receive Salvation.

No it isn’t. :slight_smile: See my last comments.

edited for length.

In closing, I will say that I don’t believe that I am playing God and condemning people. I look at Scripture and see that God chose a certain people (Israel)…after that he let His word reach others (Gentiles) and wants it to reach all. I know that belief in Christ is the way to eternal life. I can’t say that I know God’s character well enough to know if he will have mercy on those who do not know Him (he is merciful in presenting us Christ and just as well). I would much rather pay a penalty for my knowledge of the Gospel so that others will DEFINATELY hear his words than assume that I know the character of God enough to define what just and merciful mean in HIS eyes.

To believe in Christ (which entails more than mere mental assent but living for him as well, as I’m sure you agree) is certainly the assured means of salvation. All the Church is saying is that it is possible for non-Christians to be saved through Christ without understanding that he is their salvation because he judges the heart and because of his great mercy. This in no way means we aren’t to go into all the world and proclaim Christ. It’s only telling us that God knows all and judges fairly not that we aren’t to tell others about Christ or invite them into his Body, the Church.


#11

[quote=Orionthehunter]Jpete, generally there is little that I disagree with in your post per se.

However, I want to introduce some thoughts that are given insufficient attention in your post.

First of all, Christians adhere to and worship a God the Creator, God the Son, Savior and Redeemer, and God the Holy Spirit, perfectly united in one God.

Our Jewish and Muslim brethren also adhere to and worship the God of Abraham as do we. Unfortunately their understanding of the Triune God is incomplete. But at the same time, our understanding of God in all His infinite glory and majesty is also imperfect and incomplete. To have perfect and complete knowledge would require us to be God.

The Catholic teaching in this regard is that our more complete revelation and understanding of God gives us a path for salvation to which we are obliged to follow. Our charity toward our Jewish and Muslim brethren is acknowledgement that our understanding of God is imperfect and incomplete and thus our understanding of their path and opportunity for salvation is imperfect and incomplete. Thus, becuase of ignorance, it is presumptious to assert that we know precisely how our Jewish and Muslim brethren will be recieved by God in judgment.

Furthermore, I’m not sure it is accurate to say that our Muslim and Jewish breathren are “rejecting God” as they do aspire to follow and worship the God of Abraham and not some pagan God. Again, we don’t know because of our imperfect knowledge God’s reaction to their rejection of Christ. We know because of the depth of God’s revelation to Christians this is a grave matter. But again, Catholic teaching of mortal sin requires them to reject Christ with full knowledge and understanding of the consequences of their rejection. Again, we don’t know because aren’t God and can’t see into the depth of their hearts whether this rejection is done with full knowledge and understanding of the consequences of their rejection.
[/quote]

Orion,

I indeed to say that Jews and Muslims do NOT worship the same God that we do. If they reject the Trinity, they reject God. It is impossible to say that I worship the same God as a Christian without believing in Jesus Christ.

Christ himself said that whoever rejects the son rejects the father. Judaism and Islam are all based on the belief that Christianity is wrong for one reason or another.

Jews in Christ’s era did not believe that He was Messiah because they didn’t believe that the Messiah lived to die. They wanted to be exalted as the chosen people and wanted Christ to be their leader. When he was crucified; they rejected him. Jews had every access to Christ and didn’t believe. Even today, I would say that very few Jews have not ever heard of the name of Jesus Christ as redeemer.

Muslims are a little different as its now the second biggest religion in the world and has increased in size dramatically the last millenium. However, again; Muhammad rejected Christ and even exalted himself above him. In their belief, they think of Jesus as nothing more than a prophet. One of their very central beliefs is rejection of Christ because Jesus is not the Messiah and never died for the sins of man. He is just another prophet.

I think most (I will not say all) Jews and Muslims openly reject Christ and therefore reject God himself. I don’t believe its the same God that we all worship. Their gods may take on characteristics of our Lord but because of their neglect of one piece of the Trinity, the whole is rejected.

Well, I’m sorry I’ve got to cut this short as I’m done at work today but I’ll probably be back tomorrow.

God Bless,
Jim


#12

jpete wrote:

I think most (I will not say all) Jews and Muslims openly reject Christ and therefore reject God himself. I don’t believe its the same God that we all worship. Their gods may take on characteristics of our Lord but because of their neglect of one piece of the Trinity, the whole is rejected.

Even if one can argue that Muslims do not believe in the same God as we do for the reasons you cited, God still judges them by what they knew and what they did with what they knew. If they don’t know who Jesus really is but believe what they have been taught all their lives about him, they are not as accountable before God as those who did know and rejected him with full knowledge and full will. IOW, they have to know that Jesus is the Son of God and still reject him, not merely believe that he isn’t the Son of God. While we have to do all as God has commanded us as Christians to do, he will do as he wants to do without consulting us or with any regard for what we think we know with his creation, including those of other faiths.


#13

My question is one that has to do with jpete’s assertion that the God of Islam and Judaism is not the same God as the God of Christianity. But aren’t you kind of saying that our belief defines God? God is who He is (:wink: ), someone not fully accepting the truth about who He is does not change who He is. How could it? I think that to some, admitting that the God of Abraham (therefore the God of Islam and Judaism) is the same God, is equal to saying that Judaism or Islam are acceptable to Him (don’t confuse that with the possiblity of a Jew or a Muslim being acceptable to Him through the ways others in this thread are putting forth). If I admit that, then I’m saying that somehow I’m okay with the actual messages of their faith, which isn’t the case. Their choice to believe that the Trinity is not true does not change the fact that the God of Abraham, who is the father of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, is God the Father in the Trinity. Humans not believing that Jesus is God or that there is a Holy Spirit does not make God the Father NOT God the Father. Am I making sense, or am I wrong?


#14

jpete,

Scripture makes it clear that God will judge us based on what we know to be true. If we reject Jesus with full knowledge and understanding then we operate without excuse and will be condemned. Typical Muslims and Jews probably do not fall into this category even though their “belief systems” are a rejection of Jesus. This is an important distinction that other posters have been trying to hammer home.

Paul tells us the following in Romans 2:14-16:

“When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse **or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” **

Notice that Paul indicates that non-believers might be “excused” on the day of judgment. This is the essence of God’s mercy and why Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. God will judge and he will do so with mercy and justice.


#15

This again is to everyone as I can’t continually respond to every post pointed at me.

Bookgirl:

I must say that I believe you have made the best argument so far that I’ve heard for this case. The only reason I can say that I disagree with it is because I try to make my assertion on Scripture (although I know that I do make mistakes on how I characterize God because I am limited in my knowledge). Because I use Scripture it is not I that define God subjectively but the Bible that does so objectively.

Now, its a very tough subject and many people do have many opinions on it. I believe they are not the same because of the objections involved. They object to Christ! Meanwhile, the word was with God and the word was God and the word was made flesh! If they reject Christ, they reject the word and they reject God. What they believe if they reject our God must be a God that is defined by them and can no longer be ours.

You may disagree on this point but what we cannot disagree on is that they are not Christian and whether they may believe Allah and our God are the same, they don’t know the Son.

Pax:

As far as Romans 2 goes…don’t take it without Romans 3 and the rest. Remember this is a letter and should be looked at in its entirety. Romans starts speaking about the differences between Jews and Gentiles. Then he goes on to speak about the obedience of the law. After this, he talks about how no one is righteous. NOT EVEN ONE.

Then is the key verse…
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

TO ALL WHO BELIEVE. No one is righteous except those who BELIEVE. He continues;

There is no difference between Jew or Muslim or anyone else…no one is righteous except those who believe,
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,* through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

He justifies whom? THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH IN JESUS.

Now lets continue in Chapter 4, where it is written;
22This is why “it was credited to him (Abraham) as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

We need to believe in Him who raised Jesus from the dead. If we don’t believe that he raised Christ, how are we redeemed from sin?

In Chapter 5 he continues
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

We have been justified through Faith…we read in 3 that faith is in Christ and its been reiterated in 4 that faith must be in God who raised Christ from the dead.

Even much later on we read
9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Paul is in no way advocating that a Gentile god without Christ can get to Heaven. He is no way saying that any Israelite (Jew) who does not believe in Christ can gain salvation. He states it clearly throughout Romans that it is only through Christ Jesus that salvation is given. Through our ACCEPTANCE AND BELIEF OF HIM.

In His Grip,
Jim*


#16

Jpete,

You of all people should not accuse anyone of not believing in the same one true God or Christ as revealed to us through the holy scriptures.

Remember the believers of Christ in the scriptures that believe what you believe in regards to the Euchurist, left Jesus including, Judas. Judas left the presents of Christ when he understood that He had to eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Christ to have life within him. The new covenent is just like the old covenent in Exodus ch. 12, but we now partake of the unbloody scarifice. The flesh of the sacrificed lamb must be consumed to renew the convenent with God.

You fit into the same category as Jews and Muslims. If you realize that your postion is so far from the fullness of truth as revealed to us, the question that you pose about Muslims and Jews being saved can be posed to you as well. How can you be saved if you don’t believe in the words of Jesus in scripture regarding the new covenent?

You placing yourself on the Catholic side of the question when your answer will come if you view yourself from the other side.

I am not question your faith by any means. I can tell your a devout christian. Best wishes on your mission trip to Africa.

How can your views be so much more different than Muslims or Jews? How can you not think that they have the same chance as you at salvation?

Respectfully,

Sean


#17

To add to my previous post.

I hope that you don’t believe that you are saved because you are more rightegous then these people.


#18

[quote=Sean Boyle]Jpete,

You of all people should not accuse anyone of not believing in the same one true God or Christ as revealed to us through the holy scriptures.

Remember the believers of Christ in the scriptures that believe what you believe in regards to the Euchurist, left Jesus including, Judas. Judas left the presents of Christ when he understood that He had to eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Christ to have life within him. The new covenent is just like the old covenent in Exodus ch. 12, but we now partake of the unbloody scarifice. The flesh of the sacrificed lamb must be consumed to renew the convenent with God.

You fit into the same category as Jews and Muslims. If you realize that your postion is so far from the fullness of truth as revealed to us, the question that you pose about Muslims and Jews being saved can be posed to you as well. How can you be saved if you don’t believe in the words of Jesus in scripture regarding the new covenent?

You placing yourself on the Catholic side of the question when your answer will come if you view yourself from the other side.

I am not question your faith by any means. I can tell your a devout christian. Best wishes on your mission trip to Africa.

How can your views be so much more different than Muslims or Jews? How can you not think that they have the same chance as you at salvation?

Respectfully,

Sean
[/quote]

Sean:

Thank you for the best wishes on my trip. I will be honest my first inclination to your post was to say, “how dare you question my belief in Christ?” But I will stray away from that as it is not loving and I have to expect differences of opinions considering we are different in backgrounds. After all I am on a Catholic board. Most likely if you were on a Protestant board I’m sure many people would tell you that your Church is the whore of Babylon (which I DO NOT agree with).

I have heard from many people on this board that the New Covenant is Baptism, now I hear that it is the Eucharist; which is it? I always thought it was with Christ’s blood!

Anyways, I will tell you that I may not believe in the change of material in the Eucharist but I do believe in obedience to the supper. I believe in the Spiritual aspect of it; I don’t believe in the change of substance. During the Last Supper, Christ said after, “this is my body and this is my blood; that whoever drinks the cup of the vine.” Well if there is an actual change; why would Christ still say whoever drinks the cup of the vine? Wouldn’t the material now be the cup of his blood?

The reason my views are so different than Jews or Muslims has to do with one name.

JESUS CHRIST!

Muslims and Jews do have the same chance at salvation that we do. But they only have that chance if they know who Christ is which is why we need Missions in this world


#19

[quote=Sean Boyle]To add to my previous post.

I hope that you don’t believe that you are saved because you are more rightegous then these people.
[/quote]

Sean:

I don’t believe my own righteousness saves me for that is impossible. If it was by my own accord I would be damned to Hell. It is Christ’s righteousness alone that saves me; because of His blood. Read the words of Paul in Romans that I posted;

No one is righteous, not even one
All men fall short of the glory of God

In the same way that I am not righteous though, they are not righteous which is why they need the righteousness that is in Christ.


#20

It is through God’s “grace” that we are saved. How can you know what God’s grace holds for someone else?

I was tring to raise your ire earlier to point out that you were categorizing two entire religions containing God children as being possibly unsaved or not capable of salvation because they didn’t believe in certain God given truths that you believe in.

In the presents of God, God’s Truth will be revealed to us. Not everyone on this earth can be assured that the “truths” that they believed here on earth are the ones that you need to believe in to gain God’s grace.


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