Invincible ignorance!


#1

there has been some discussion about PROTESTANTS and invincible ignorance…it seems as if some people are forgetting the word INVINCIBLE…OBVIOUSLY , most Protestants dont know that the Catholic church is the one true Church…( some will quote vatican II when it says “if aNYONE knows the Catholic church is the one true Church and refuses to enter it he cannot be saved” but this does not exclude those who dont know it is the Church but it is tHEIR FAULT THAT THEY DONT KNOW) but this is where the word INVINCIBLE comEs in…IT HAS TO BE THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN THAT THEY ARE NOT CATHOLIC…so just because a Protestant doesnt know he should enter the Church THAT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY EXCLUDE HIM FroM DAMNATION…he may have culpable ignorance…i aslo understand that we dont know who has culpable or invincible ignorance… so my point is that we should warn all that they may run the risk of going to hell if they do not accept God’s truth…ur approach u take when doing this is ur decision… some may favor the hard approach and same may favor the softer… but that is an opinion and a prudential decision…i personally think we need a combination of both…also i quoted from Pat madrid’s debate that “many of u run the risk of going to hell for not entering the catholic church…” i said earlier that using the word “all” here is appropriate because again we dont know who is culpable and who is not…and they very well could end up in hell… catholics themselves run the risk of going to hell (although for other reasons, not for rejecting church teaching) so all the more for Protestants and other religions—so please people stop implying that just because someone is ignornant they are ok—they are not, anyone who is not a catholic needs to be become or risk eternal damnation… sorry but jesus made similar warnings when he said …“he who does not believe in Hm is already judged because he does not believe in the only Begotten Son of God.” John 3:18


#2

[quote=marineboy]there has been some discussion about PROTESTANTS and invincible ignorance…it seems as if some people are forgetting the word INVINCIBLE…OBVIOUSLY , most Protestants dont know that the Catholic church is the one true Church…( some will quote vatican II when it says “if aNYONE knows the Catholic church is the one true Church and refuses to enter it he cannot be saved” but this does not exclude those who dont know it is the Church but it is tHEIR FAULT THAT THEY DONT KNOW) but this is where the word INVINCIBLE comEs in…IT HAS TO BE THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN THAT THEY ARE NOT CATHOLIC…so just because a Protestant doesnt know he should enter the Church THAT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY EXCLUDE HIM FroM DAMNATION…he may have culpable ignorance…i aslo understand that we dont know who has culpable or invincible ignorance… so my point is that we should warn all that they may run the risk of going to hell if they do not accept God’s truth…ur approach u take when doing this is ur decision… some may favor the hard approach and same may favor the softer… but that is an opinion and a prudential decision…i personally think we need a combination of both…also i quoted from Pat madrid’s debate that “many of u run the risk of going to hell for not entering the catholic church…” i said earlier that using the word “all” here is appropriate because again we dont know who is culpable and who is not…and they very well could end up in hell… catholics themselves run the risk of going to hell (although for other reasons, not for rejecting church teaching) so all the more for Protestants and other religions—so please people stop implying that just because someone is ignornant they are ok—they are not, anyone who is not a catholic needs to be become or risk eternal damnation… sorry but jesus made similar warnings when he said …“he who does not believe in Hm is already judged because he does not believe in the only Begotten Son of God.” John 3:18
[/quote]

All these points have been addressed in your previous threads.

winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html

Sigh…


#3

i dont think we fully dealt with the word invincible—that is the key word…


#4

We are commanded to spread the Gospel. That helps overcome the ‘ignorance.’ The Holy Spirit can overcome the ‘invincible.’


#5

[quote=marineboy]i dont think we fully dealt with the word invincible—that is the key word…
[/quote]

Let me ask you a question,why does the possibility that a non-catholic would have a chance to go to heaven bother you so much?Have you heard anything any of the posters have said,EVEN a Priest?If you have tell me in detail what you heard us say.Thankyou and God Bless


#6

marineboy, give it a rest. God bless.


#7

The only one that is invincible by any definition is Jesus, and He is God.

It is God, who by His Holy Spirit, draws people to Himself and gives those who truly love Him the ability to share His Word with others; but remember:

1 Corinthians 3:5-7 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth;** but God that giveth the increase.**

In other words, who is the RCC that they should take all credit?

Give God the praise, honor and glory due Him.


#8

[quote=redeemed1]The only one that is invincible by any definition is Jesus, and He is God.

It is God, who by His Holy Spirit, draws people to Himself and gives those who truly love Him the ability to share His Word with others; but remember:

1 Corinthians 3:5-7 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth;** but God that giveth the increase.**

In other words, who is the RCC that they should take all credit?

Give God the praise, honor and glory due Him.
[/quote]

“He who hears you hears ME, and he who rejects you rejects ME and the ONE WHO sent ME.”

And He was not giving this authority to any believer but only to the Apostles - the only ones who could bind and loose, … etc, etc, etc.

Praise God by listenening to His message in the manner He chooses to deliver it. Then, maybe, you can think you are giving Him the honor and glory.


#9

[quote=marineboy]there has been some discussion about PROTESTANTS and invincible ignorance…it seems as if some people are forgetting the word INVINCIBLE…OBVIOUSLY , most Protestants dont know that the Catholic church is the one true Church…( some will quote vatican II when it says “if aNYONE knows the Catholic church is the one true Church and refuses to enter it he cannot be saved” but this does not exclude those who dont know it is the Church but it is tHEIR FAULT THAT THEY DONT KNOW) but this is where the word INVINCIBLE comEs in…IT HAS TO BE THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN THAT THEY ARE NOT CATHOLIC…so just because a Protestant doesnt know he should enter the Church THAT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY EXCLUDE HIM FroM DAMNATION…he may have culpable ignorance…i aslo understand that we dont know who has culpable or invincible ignorance… so my point is that we should warn all that they may run the risk of going to hell if they do not accept God’s truth…ur approach u take when doing this is ur decision… some may favor the hard approach and same may favor the softer… but that is an opinion and a prudential decision…i personally think we need a combination of both…also i quoted from Pat madrid’s debate that “many of u run the risk of going to hell for not entering the catholic church…” i said earlier that using the word “all” here is appropriate because again we dont know who is culpable and who is not…and they very well could end up in hell… catholics themselves run the risk of going to hell (although for other reasons, not for rejecting church teaching) so all the more for Protestants and other religions—so please people stop implying that just because someone is ignornant they are ok—they are not, anyone who is not a catholic needs to be become or risk eternal damnation… sorry but jesus made similar warnings when he said …“he who does not believe in Hm is already judged because he does not believe in the only Begotten Son of God.” John 3:18
[/quote]

Marineboy,

I have been extemely interested in this.

How about me. I have been on this site for months now. I have a pretty good understanding of the Catholic faith (better than the average catholic since I am often teaching other catholics about thier faith!). I don’t feel as if I misrepresent the Church in any way. Most of my information about the RC Church comes from informed Catholic. So I do not adhere to the folk theology and false ideas the some Protestants do. But, having said this, am not persuaded that it is true. In other words, I do not find any warrent for apostolic succession. Therefore, I remain a believer in Christ loves and is devoted to Him, but not in your Church.

Where am I at concerning your interpretation of V2?


#10

[quote=michaelp]Marineboy,

I have been extemely interested in this.

How about me. I have been on this site for months now. I have a pretty good understanding of the Catholic faith (better than the average catholic since I am often teaching other catholics about thier faith!). I don’t feel as if I misrepresent the Church in any way. Most of my information about the RC Church comes from informed Catholic. So I do not adhere to the folk theology and false ideas the some Protestants do. But, having said this, am not persuaded that it is true. In other words, I do not find any warrent for apostolic succession. Therefore, I remain a believer in Christ loves and is devoted to Him, but not in your Church.

Where am I at concerning your interpretation of V2?
[/quote]

Maybe I am just tired (had some of the grandkids today), but somehow this seems so incompatible… to teach Catholics… to not misrepresent… and to admit to doing so while denying apostolic succession. :nope: (me shaking my head in puzzlement)

… the Truth, the whole Truth, and something besides the Truth


#11

[quote=MrS]Maybe I am just tired (had some of the grandkids today), but somehow this seems so incompatible… to teach Catholics… to not misrepresent… and to admit to doing so while denying apostolic succession. :nope: (me shaking my head in puzzlement)

… the Truth, the whole Truth, and something besides the Truth
[/quote]

What I mean is that my method of teaching is to give every side a valid representation so that if someone with a belief I appose were to sit in, they would shake their head and say that is exactly what we believe. This way, I let the arguments speak for themselves and let the audience decide. Many people leave my classes disagreeing with my persuasion and this is fine, so long as I have represented the postitions with intergrety.


#12

[quote=michaelp]What I mean is that my method of teaching is to give every side a valid representation so that if someone with a belief I appose were to sit in, they would shake their head and say that is exactly what we believe. This way, I let the arguments speak for themselves and let the audience decide. Many people leave my classes disagreeing with my persuasion and this is fine, so long as I have represented the postitions with intergrety.
[/quote]

But, Michael as much as you have wonderful, debating skills,have you not realized that Jesus is our Lord and Savior?And if so, have you ever wondered what if,there is a succession?Have you ever wondered why Judas was replaced?Have you ever just imagined what if it is true?And if you haven’t ,have you ever wondered why you couldn’t imagine?Just questions to ponder, you don’t have to reply. I understand your frustration with marineboy,but don’t forget that that God can’t be caged in our human reasoning,I am glad you are here,and I will continue to pray for you.God Bless


#13

to the Protestant that is not persuaded: i cannot judge ur state of mind or ur culpibilatly, however i would absolutley warn u that ur salvation is at risk–whether u will be saved is ultimatley a matter between u and God, but yes there is a possobility u could go to hell. that being said i have three pooints… i dont understand how u can remain a Protestant… if u study Church history how can u remain in a Church that is so contrary to history in their beliefs… 1. the notion that man is justified by faith alone…u can t find one person who asserted this position, as Luther did, for roughly 1500 years… same with sola scriptura… almost the same with the Real Presence, other then Berengarius of Tours i think in the 11th century… just these three points alone should make u realize that Protestanism is not correct… to remain a Protestant u would have to argue like a Mormon would argue… that there was a great apostocy in the early Church (a complete apostacy) and then God restored truth in the 16 th century with the reformation… but from scripture we know that that is not true because Christ said i am with u always til the end… and he said he would send the Advocate the Holy Sprit to guide the Church… .If faith alone, sola scriptura, and the the symbolic reprensation of the Eucharist is true… WHAT HAPPENED FOR 1300 YEARS AND ROUGHLY 1500 FOR THAT MATTER?? C’MON HOW CAN U STAY IN THAT CHURCH…??? as John Nueman said, a Protestant convert, “the realazation of history is the end of Protestanism…”


#14

[quote=marineboy]there has been some discussion about PROTESTANTS and invincible ignorance…it seems as if some people are forgetting the word INVINCIBLE…OBVIOUSLY , most Protestants dont know that the Catholic church is the one true Church…( some will quote vatican II when it says “if aNYONE knows the Catholic church is the one true Church and refuses to enter it he cannot be saved” but this does not exclude those who dont know it is the Church but it is tHEIR FAULT THAT THEY DONT KNOW) but this is where the word INVINCIBLE comEs in…IT HAS TO BE THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN THAT THEY ARE NOT CATHOLIC…so just because a Protestant doesnt know he should enter the Church THAT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY EXCLUDE HIM FroM DAMNATION…he may have culpable ignorance…i aslo understand that we dont know who has culpable or invincible ignorance… so my point is that we should warn all that they may run the risk of going to hell if they do not accept God’s truth…ur approach u take when doing this is ur decision… some may favor the hard approach and same may favor the softer… but that is an opinion and a prudential decision…i personally think we need a combination of both…also i quoted from Pat madrid’s debate that “many of u run the risk of going to hell for not entering the catholic church…” i said earlier that using the word “all” here is appropriate because again we dont know who is culpable and who is not…and they very well could end up in hell… catholics themselves run the risk of going to hell (although for other reasons, not for rejecting church teaching) so all the more for Protestants and other religions—so please people stop implying that just because someone is ignornant they are ok—they are not, anyone who is not a catholic needs to be become or risk eternal damnation… sorry but jesus made similar warnings when he said …“he who does not believe in Hm is already judged because he does not believe in the only Begotten Son of God.” John 3:18
[/quote]

You cannot put limits on the Mercy of God!!!

A great nation of Protestants will surely fill heaven. As for those Protestants who know the Catholic Church and reject it anyway, their souls are in serious jeopardy. But God is far more merciful than you or anyone can comprehend.

Read your Catechism, please.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

Scare-tactic evangleism sets those who you try to convert against you and pours concrete around their feet. It is good to instruct people in their ways, but to call them ignorant jeopardizes their soul AS WELL AS yours!!! You will NEVER win converts by calling them ignorant. Never!

You must learn to love them and pray for them out of love.
And pray that God will have mery on them should they not convert.

History has proven again and again that souls cannot be conquered. People can be conquered, but free will cannot. And when you call people “ignorant,” it sets them with renewed conviction into their erroneous choice.

Matt. 5:22
"But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.


#15

[quote=marineboy]to the Protestant that is not persuaded: i cannot judge ur state of mind or ur culpibilatly, however i would absolutley warn u that ur salvation is at risk–whether u will be saved is ultimatley a matter between u and God, but yes there is a possobility u could go to hell. that being said i have three pooints… i dont understand how u can remain a Protestant… if u study Church history how can u remain in a Church that is so contrary to history in their beliefs… 1. the notion that man is justified by faith alone…u can t find one person who asserted this position, as Luther did, for roughly 1500 years… same with sola scriptura… almost the same with the Real Presence, other then Berengarius of Tours i think in the 11th century… just these three points alone should make u realize that Protestanism is not correct… to remain a Protestant u would have to argue like a Mormon would argue… that there was a great apostocy in the early Church (a complete apostacy) and then God restored truth in the 16 th century with the reformation… but from scripture we know that that is not true because Christ said i am with u always til the end… and he said he would send the Advocate the Holy Sprit to guide the Church… .If faith alone, sola scriptura, and the the symbolic reprensation of the Eucharist is true… WHAT HAPPENED FOR 1300 YEARS AND ROUGHLY 1500 FOR THAT MATTER?? C’MON HOW CAN U STAY IN THAT CHURCH…??? as John Nueman said, a Protestant convert, “the realazation of history is the end of Protestanism…”
[/quote]

Thanks Marineboy. I just happen to see things differently than you. Not because I have not studied Church history, for I contine to study and love it. You cannot make the assumption that people who are Protestant do not study nor love Church history, any more than I can make the assumption that people who are Catholics do not study or read the Bible. I could make the same assertation as Newman, but just say that “to study the Bible is to cease to be Catholic” as most evangelicals would. But this is not necessarily true and would be unfair.

Thanks for your response though.

Michael


#16

michaelP,

**You list your self as Evangelical in your Profile. You wrote,"**How about me. I have been on this site for months now. I have a pretty good understanding of the Catholic faith (better than the average catholic since I am often teaching other catholics about thier faith!). I don’t feel as if I misrepresent the Church in any way."

You are an Evangelical. You say you teach Catholics about their Catholic faith. Are you doing this at or in a Catholic Parish? If yes, does the Priest know that an Evangelical is instructing his flock?

Why aren’t you instructing your own Protestant group?


#17

[quote=michaelp]Thanks Marineboy. I just happen to see things differently than you. Not because I have not studied Church history, for I contine to study and love it. You cannot make the assumption that people who are Protestant do not study nor love Church history, any more than I can make the assumption that people who are Catholics do not study or read the Bible. I could make the same assertation as Newman, but just say that “to study the Bible is to cease to be Catholic” as most evangelicals would. But this is not necessarily true and would be unfair.

Thanks for your response though.

Michael
[/quote]

Michael,marineboy is taking jabs. Newman took his faith journey and it led him to the Catholic Church and he made that comment about his personal conversion. As usual marine boy is trying to divert dialog so no good fruits can come through them. Even a priest asked him to stop these jugemental threads and comments,to no avail. Pray for him and maybe he will understand the spirit of these post are mean.God Bless


#18

[quote=marineboy]to the Protestant that is not persuaded: i cannot judge ur state of mind or ur culpibilatly…
[/quote]

And that ought to be pretty much the end of the discussion. Now go forth to preach the Gospel. Use words only when necessary.

– Mark L. Chance.


#19

lisa i am not taking jabs… i made a couple of ponits regarding Church history and asked how for roughly 1500 years the Church beleive Catholic doctrines reagrading scripture, justification and the Real Presence… neuman’s quote certainly does apply here… no offense but but u should stop ur judmental attitude assuming that i am tlaking jabs when in fact i am not… and u cant judge my intentions so u dont know my motives… if u go back and read my thread i merely ask a very tough for question for any Protestant to answer…


#20

[quote=marineboy] but but u should stop ur judmental attitude assuming that i am tlaking jabs .
[/quote]

Rubbish. You are the one with the judgemental attitude and many posters have told you to stop. Please do so.


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