Ireland could be first nation to legalize same-sex marriage by popular vote

SSM totally beggars belief considering that matrimony (taken from the latin meaning mother and a male ending) was set up to strengthen societies by ensuring children were nurtured in a loving and secure environment. The ‘work and effort’ Western governments have put into promoting SSM to get it accepted, is astounding, and for WHY?

I doubt any government could care less about gay people over any other person, all they care about is the ‘economy’ and getting their money’s worth out of the workers. So how does this assist economies/societal structures in the long term?

My only ‘guess’ is that by annihilating the family structure and eventually making marriage a farce they will have an easier society to rule over, due to decreased familial ties and potentially a lower population rate. E.G. euthanasia could be easier to introduce in law, if parental ties will be less strong or non-existent i.e. a sperm or egg donor, etc.

But that is only my ‘guess’, I just don’t get what the handle is for SSM to be such an important issue for governments, for the over the past 5 years or so. :shrug:

In relation to Enda’s comment about being Catholic and having stronger relations to the faith, this is quite common with some Catholics. They genuinely do not see any irony in such a statement as they are being ‘loving and kind’ to all people, i.e. treating those with SSA as equal in that they can marry who they ‘love’ too.

independent.ie/irish-news/referendum/i-am-perfectly-clear-in-my-mind-and-in-my-conscience-31228643.html

*BOC: You’re coming, Taoiseach, from a fairly staunchly Catholic starting point. A lot of people out there are struggling because they are good Catholics and the Church is telling them one thing and possibly most other people are telling them another thing. Can you identify with that struggle?

EK: You’re right, I was married in the Catholic Church; I am very proud of that. I went to the religious ceremony and signed the register, which is the civil part of the marriage. Now we have so much discrimination in this world, colour, race, creed, all of these things and there is an issue here that the right of marriage in the civil law is not extended to same-sex couples. That is the question people will be asked.
When I was leader after 2002, I had a number of people working for the party who I knew, or it was brought to my attention, that they were gay people. That didn’t impact on me at all - working with me, working with the party, working with politics.

BOC: Some people would say that, as a person who is regarded as a good Catholic, you have had more than a few flashpoints with the Catholic Church, and without seeming to have set out on a mission, you have done a lot to separate Church and State. Could this be another huge wedge between Church and State?

EK: Yes. I just felt the opportunity to hold this office is rare indeed, and I felt there was a range of issues that was never dealt with, and needed to be dealt with. But personally, as a citizen, my relationship with the Church is far healthier and stronger than ever before. I think there is an acceptance of policies that I would raise as a citizen and deal with as a politician.*

Enda should ask his peers in County Mayo who elected him what THEY think.
They are disappointed in him.
Very disappointed.

It’s a flaw of the democratic-representational system, that those who hold office are forever beholden to those whose coins got them there.

There are tons of euro, pounds, or US$ take your pick, in the gay and progay subsectors. In the past this was driven by the “double income no kids” demographic stereotype; now presumably by all the biomedical services (maternal surrogacy, IVF, etc) that stand to profit from them.

Mebbe that was why our LORD nor the Holy Church ever taught to desire democracy. As beneficial as it is in most respects, rule by money cannot produce right governance.

IMNAAHO

ICXC NIKA

Catholic and deeply conservative, Ireland was long known as one of the toughest places in the Western world to be gay. Homosexuality was only decriminalized here in 1993, following years of pressure from European authorities.

But now Ireland may be preparing for its coming-out party, with a referendum on Friday that could make it the world’s first country to approve same-sex marriage in a popular vote.

washingtonpost.com/world/europe/after-decades-in-the-shadows-gays-in-ireland-ready-for-coming-out-party/2015/05/16/9e2bb6e4-f8ca-11e4-a47c-e56f4db884ed_story.html

I have had a look at the polls and they show the ‘Yes’ support dramatically ahead of ‘No,’ but although that is what the polls are saying, at least one poll on a different Irish referendum didn’t reflect reality once the voting percent had been tallied:

In 2013, for example, a referendum on children’s rights – which enshrined individual rights for minors in the constitution and granted the state greater powers to intervene in families – was just narrowly passed. An opinion poll had said just 4% of voters would oppose the motion, on polling day a significant 42% of citizens decided to vote against the children’s rights amendment.

catholicworldreport.com/Item/3764/confusion_in_ireland_as_marriage_equality_referendum_approaches.aspx

Yes, there is definitely still hope it will be a NO vote. There are numerous novenas, 54 day rosaries and divine mercy chaplets being said at different Irish parishes.

As NO voters have been labelled Nazis last week (by a pyschologist), homophobes, intolerant, not compassionate, etc, etc…on a daily in the MSM, not too many NO voters are being vocal in their stance.

I really don;t understand the current support for gay-marriage in the West, I just don’t get it. And Ireland of all places, what has happend to the Irish?

Linus2nd

The Atlantic nations have made an idolatry of personal freedom, which has been redefined to include freedom to behave sexually wholly as one chooses with social approval.

And in Ireland, sadly, there seems to be a backlash against the Church, all the stronger because the Church was historically so strong there.

ICXC NIKA

I really don;t understand the current support for gay-marriage in the West, I just don’t get it. And Ireland of all places, what has happend to the Irish?

The movement’s lobbying efforts are highly (to the extreme) organized, well-funded, and very assertive. The movement has made inroads even into large corporations, with well-orchestrated campaigns for “advocates” and “talking points” to address opposing viewpoints. There is some serious cash supporting the movement.

As an Irishman, with the utmost respect Kim Jong Un has a better chance of being elected Pope and being serenaded upon the balcony at St. Peters by a choir of Black Jewish homosexual Nazi’s than there is of a NO vote in Ireland.

For the record I shall be voting YES myself, but yeah…You should know this ain’t a big liberal spin doctor affair Pepipop, if you can’t see how angry Ireland is at the Vatican still then you must have been sat under a rock for the past twenty years. I mean how long has it been since they kicked out the Papal Nuncio? Hasn’t been that long since he was very quietly re-admitted (to much open public fury if you recall).

Two things really, one we’re generally an easy going bunch. Unless you’re activley causing us trouble we generally don’t see a reason to get involved (“ya’ll let me do my thing, I’ll let you go do your thing”).

Secondly the Irish, and even on many levels Irish Catholics, the few who do still attend mass do not trust the Catholic Church. Magdeline Laundries, Child trafficking, sex abuses…As I heard one fellow on a program (semi-jokingly) a few days ago “If the Catholic Church doesn’t like it, it must be good”.

That should give you an idea of how highly respected the Catholic Church is in Ireland. Many of us feel betrayed, abused and quite frankly simply used as pawns with a total callous disregard to our dignity or rights as human beings by the Catholic Church, and that feeling doesn’t appear to be going away very fast with time or with the rise of future generations. It’s not like America where the Catholic Church is in one or two sections of society, from the grassroots to the very top levels of goverment the Catholic Church had an influence that could be felt everywhere and once the news of what it really got up to behind closed doors came out well…That wasn’t going to be tolerated on any level any more.

The fact that in many cases the Catholic Church continues to deny things such as child trafficking in the laundries when we’ve actually got clear proof of it occurring (documents they didn’t manage to burn in time for example, or until more recently that very well known case now infamous case of Philomena Lee who was only one of many women in similar circumstances) has left many people with a deep sense of loss, and a deep bitterness towards anything in clerical garb.

I don’t say this with any glee, I’m no atheist and I do consider myself a Christian but I really do think Christianity as a whole is done here. Protestantism is not a viable option here, Orthodoxy isn’t going to happen; but both have far better odds of taking root than Catholicism recovering.

Of course it’s a spin doctor affair, all initially orchestrated by our leaders in the EU and carried on by the henchmen, Enda et al. The MSM is 90% coverage for the Yes vote and 10% NO vote.

One of the best advocates, on behalf of the NO vote, has been totally ignored by the MSM i.e., Paddy Manning a gay Irish man, who lived through the unfair persecution of gays in the 70/80’s but who categorically states SSM is wrong, and also that it has ‘nothing’ to do with ‘equality’ for gay people. He also states in the video below that he is now getting hate mail, etc… that states he is a ‘self-hating’ gay man because of his stance. :rolleyes: Needless to say he has no religious or homophobic bias to his argument hence why he has been totally ignored by the MSM.

youtube.com/watch?v=iPG7cwbHZ_Y

Kenny has done nothing for Ireland except what the EU has ordered him to do. The Irish people paid off nearly 42% of the entire EU bank collapse debt and neither Kenny or any other Irish politician said a peep. Just “Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir”.

The only reason I would like SF to get in next time, is just to see Gerry Adams, in Brussels, fighting for Ireland and saying ‘his piece’ - unfortunately, I do not agree with SF’s stance on other issues such as abortion.

Why? Why are homosexual advocates out organizing the largest and most organized institution on the face of the earth?

Why? Why is commercial media out-evangelizing the Catholic Church?

This all seems to me like a symptom of a deeper malaise.

This is another gay Irish man voting NO, for similar reasons as Paddy Manning.

His name is Keith Mills.

youtube.com/watch?v=Q6HD8KLQBvA

Father Mitch Pacwa on EWTN explained it this way [as close as I can remember]:
Anyone who has seen an anti-abortion demonstration would have noticed homosexuals counter-demonstrating the demonstrators. One might logically ask why homosexuals need abortion. Of course, they don’t, but their presence outside abortion clinics is an indication that they are part of the larger liberal/Leftist coalition, and they need the political support of those other greater member groups. It is a kind of quid pro quo.

Why wouldn’t the MSM be the more vocal or widespread than the CC - that’s its’ job. The MSM is secular and the CC does not get that much coverage through it - unless of course it is negative to the church, then it gets lots. :rolleyes:

I posted two videos of Irish gay men who are against SSM and the MSM hasn’t mentioned or approached either of them. The CC cannot compete with the MSM that is watched/read and available to all, however the church is actively working against SSM through the individual parishes along with the Catholic bishops of Ireland.

Journalists themselves have said that their job is “to make a difference.” Thus, their modus operandi is to exploit controversy, and if there is no controversy, to create it. Take the current “controversy” that Jeb Bush would have made a different decision if he knew then what he knows now." Well, who wouldn’t? :shrug:

…the church is actively working against SSM through the individual parishes …

You would never know it in my parish. I haven’t heard any of the “intrinsic evils” discussed in any parish in about 30 years.

I think when it comes to advertising between programs you may have a point, several companies have been making it clear they are for SSM as part of a pitch to boost their popularity.

When it comes to the TV debates we’ve been having though I think NO has generally been getting a lot more time to talk than the other speakers. I have to say I’ve found the choice of representatives rather odd, I mean while I understand the Catholic theological “speak” many of them are throwing out (natural law etc) that’s just going to be gobbledegook to the average non-church attending Irish citizen which, amidst the abuse (“You don’t know what real love is” to a SS couple who’ve been together 20+ years) isn’t endearing them to anyone.

There are far more charitable and diplomatic ways to say “I think what you’re doing is wrong” than telling someone they don’t know what love is and they’re going to burn. True or not in their mind threats generally don’t work with western europeans.

I’ll need to watch this first, I can’t say I remember him but I have seen that ginger “ex-lesbian” (anyone remember her name? I’ve gone blank) on the TV a few times campaigning for NO.

It’s with the younger voters. I’m US born, but to Sligo parents, and I spent every summer of up until college there, or in Mayo. So I’m still in touch with all my relatives there (God Bless Facebook :slight_smile: ) My cousins are all ‘No’ voters, but their kids are almost entirely ‘Yes’

If it passes by popular vote in Ireland, I would call that a democratic vote.

Better than having one judge or three judges or nine Justices cramming the immorality down on millions of voters as here in the U.S.A.

Reason #1: The Church has a captive audience.

Reason #2: Journalists and media owners (in Ireland at least) are Catholic.

If by “MSM is secular” you mean that they are not Catholic or that they are anti-Catholic, how did it come to be that, in a predominantly Catholic country, Catholics were expelled from the media?

…The CC cannot compete with the MSM that is watched/read and available to all, however the church is actively working against SSM through the individual parishes along with the Catholic bishops of Ireland.

Well, parishes are where the CC has a monopoly but does Ireland have Catholic radio and television?

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