Is 2 Maccabees contradictory to Catholic Teaching?


#1

In reviewing multiple Bible versions, translations, and editions I made a Bible search and found this web site “Which Bible Should I Use?”
(godonthe.net/evidence/versions.htm ).

Here Mr.Rick Reinckens makes a fair review of all english bibles Catholic and Protestant.

Regarding the NAB he makes this statement:

“Protestants do not consider the Apocrypha divinely inspired and point to various teachings that directly contradict Protestant, and in some cases even Catholic doctrines.” then proceeds to give an example in 2 Maccabees 12:31-34, 39-42 a passage regarding prayers to the dead (in support of purgatory). However he makes a subsequent comment stating that the men that died in the battle died because of their idolatry to the pagan God Jamnia thus this should make their prayers useless as idolatry is a mortal sin.

Is their truth to this?

And does one mortal sin or act directly condem a person to eternal hellfire thus making any prayer to such dead useless?

Thanks.


#2

Why are you concerning yourself with a non-Catholic (and biased by the way) website. The tip off should’ve been when the guy said that the “Apocrypha” (a perjorative in and of itself) were added to the Bible.

2nd Maccabees is OT but where he gets the totems of the dead were to some god named Jamnia I have no Idea…they were pagan, but the fact is that the Jews to this day believe in praying for the dead.

Have a look at the on Scripture and Tradition
Pax tecum,


#3

It’s all very Catholic. God is all merciful and there is an appeal here for God’s mercy to release them from their sins.

Note verses 42-46:

And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection. **(For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) **And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.


#4

QUOTE=Church Militant
2nd Maccabees is OT but where he gets the totems of the dead were to some god named Jamnia I have no Idea…they were pagan, but the fact is that the Jews to this day believe in praying for the dead.

How true this is,and that is one of the reason that many Jews are on the way to Hell. They reject Christ and His teachings. :eek: God Bless


#5

[quote=SPOKENWORD] that is one of the reason that many Jews are on the way to Hell.
[/quote]

You should leave this judgement to God.


#6

#7

[quote=Mickey]You should leave this judgement to God.
[/quote]

Of course, and I do. We will all come before Him when we die to be judged. I also know that anyone who rejects Christ will not get in. :confused: God Bless


#8

[quote=SPOKENWORD]Of course, and I do. We will all come before Him when we die to be judged. I also know that anyone who rejects Christ will not get in. :confused: God Bless
[/quote]

Yippie SpokenWord is BACK!!!
You COULDNT stay away from this place!!


#9

[quote=SPOKENWORD]Of course, and I do. We will all come before Him when we die to be judged. I also know that anyone who rejects Christ will not get in. :confused: God Bless
[/quote]

And how do you know if the person truly rejects Christ in their heart? Do you read hearts SW? Be very careful here my friend. :tsktsk:


#10

[quote=Mickey]And how do you know if the person truly rejects Christ in their heart? Do you read hearts SW? Be very careful here my friend. :tsktsk:
[/quote]

Buy what comes out of their mouth. The bible says that the heart is wicked. :eek: God Bless


#11

[quote=Catholic Dude]Yippie SpokenWord is BACK!!!
You COULDNT stay away from this place!!
[/quote]

Only for a short time until I ban myself. :smiley: God Bless


#12

[quote=SPOKENWORD]Buy what comes out of their mouth. The bible says that the heart is wicked.
[/quote]

The Bible also says:

**'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. **

Only God reads hearts.
Do not judge Spokes. Let **your **heart overflow with love.


#13

[quote=Micael]In reviewing multiple Bible versions, translations, and editions I made a Bible search and found this web site “Which Bible Should I Use?”
(godonthe.net/evidence/versions.htm ).

Here Mr.Rick Reinckens makes a fair review of all english bibles Catholic and Protestant.

Regarding the NAB he makes this statement:

“Protestants do not consider the Apocrypha divinely inspired and point to various teachings that directly contradict Protestant, and in some cases even Catholic doctrines.” then proceeds to give an example in 2 Maccabees 12:31-34, 39-42 a passage regarding prayers to the dead (in support of purgatory). However he makes a subsequent comment stating that the men that died in the battle died because of their idolatry to the pagan God Jamnia thus this should make their prayers useless as idolatry is a mortal sin.

Is their truth to this?

And does one mortal sin or act directly condem a person to eternal hellfire thus making any prayer to such dead useless?

Thanks.
[/quote]

I am not certain how this disproves Catholic teaching. If anything it does the opposite.

Jamnia was not a God by the way but a place. The people worshipped idols and plotted to kill the Jewish population among them. Judas, hearing of this, marched on Jamnia and set fire to their harbor and fleet. So there was no God, as far as I can tell, named Jamnia. If the writer of the article had read the whole chapter instead of bits and pieces, he would have dicovered that.

.


#14

[quote=Mickey]The Bible also says:

**'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. **

Only God reads hearts.
Do not judge Spokes. Let **your **heart overflow with love.
[/quote]

Yes,and these people are in trouble also. :eek: God Bless. I though Padre Pio had that Gift?(reading hearts) :confused: God Bless


#15

[quote=SPOKENWORD] I though Padre Pio had that Gift?(reading hearts)
[/quote]

That is in reference to St Pio’s gift as a confessor. It’s a whole lot different than declaring who is going straight to hell.

Just be careful Spokes, that’s all. Love your enemies and let God do the judging.

We have hi-jacked this thread so I now bid you farewell. :smiley:


#16

[quote=SPOKENWORD]Yes,and these people are in trouble also. :eek: God Bless. **I though Padre Pio had that Gift?(**reading hearts) :confused: God Bless
[/quote]

Uh-huh. I know someone who was the “victim” of Padre Pio’s gift. Walked up to him and told him to stop his extramarital affair, go back to his wife, go to confession and it would be ‘all right.’ The guy did. And it did turn out ‘all right.’ The guy turned his life around. (Well, *God *did that but you know what I mean.)

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.


#17

[quote=Mickey]That is in reference to St Pio’s gift as a confessor. It’s a whole lot different than declaring who is going straight to hell.

Just be careful Spokes, that’s all. Love your enemies and let God do the judging.

We have hi-jacked this thread so I now bid you farewell. :smiley:
[/quote]

Thanks Mickey. Ill take the warning seriously. I know I have been guilty of judging others. Many of us have.!! :eek: God Bless


#18

[quote=SPOKENWORD]Thanks Mickey. Ill take the warning seriously. I know I have been guilty of judging others. Many of us have.!! :eek: God Bless
[/quote]

img176.imageshack.us/img176/4951/aaapadrepiopicturenew5jg.gif


#19

I don’t know if anyone actually answer the question Micael was asking, especially when the thread got sidetracked. It is true, Mike, that the Jews had idols in their pockets. The error is in assuming that they died in a state of mortal sin, as the Protestant write you quoted is doing. If they had died in mortal sin and, somehow, this was evident, then prayers would be futile. BUT:

  1. We don’t know that they actually believed in these idols or if they were simply carrying them around the way many today carry rabbit’s feet.

  2. These men could have converted already, but had not rid themselves of all the trappings of their past. Just as a person may quit smoking, but still have a pack or two in their car or even in a coat pocket that they haven’t disposed of.

  3. Even if these men were idolaters, who is to say that they didn’t repent in the last hours of their lives. Should we assume that a man who dies at his mistresses house didn’t, in the quake of his heart attack, realize the gravity of his sin and beg for forgiveness?

  4. One last thing to remember, which many seem to forget, is that while the Jews understood the importance of praying for the dead, the most clear distinction of mortal and venial sin was not defined so clearly until the New Testament, so for him to judge a Jewish doctrine by Christian standards is silly.

With all four of those possibilities, and possibly others, it was the responsible thing to simply HOPE they had not died in mortal sin and offer the prayers just in case.


#20

[quote=awfulthings9]I don’t know if anyone actually answer the question Micael was asking, especially when the thread got sidetracked. It is true, Mike, that the Jews had idols in their pockets. The error is in assuming that they died in a state of mortal sin, as the Protestant write you quoted is doing. If they had died in mortal sin and, somehow, this was evident, then prayers would be futile. BUT:

  1. We don’t know that they actually believed in these idols or if they were simply carrying them around the way many today carry rabbit’s feet.

  2. These men could have converted already, but had not rid themselves of all the trappings of their past. Just as a person may quit smoking, but still have a pack or two in their car or even in a coat pocket that they haven’t disposed of.

  3. Even if these men were idolaters, who is to say that they didn’t repent in the last hours of their lives. Should we assume that a man who dies at his mistresses house didn’t, in the quake of his heart attack, realize the gravity of his sin and beg for forgiveness?

  4. One last thing to remember, which many seem to forget, is that while the Jews understood the importance of praying for the dead, the most clear distinction of mortal and venial sin was not defined so clearly until the New Testament, so for him to judge a Jewish doctrine by Christian standards is silly.

With all four of those possibilities, and possibly others, it was the responsible thing to simply HOPE they had not died in mortal sin and offer the prayers just in case.
[/quote]

:amen:


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