Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

JMJ

Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

I had an interesting discussion with a “Born Again” friend of mine today. My friend use to be a Catholic, four marriages later, now he is a “Born Again” Christian. He believes in OSAS and that all you have to do for salvation is “just believe”. When I told him that “just believe” means to believe all if it, including among other things, the necessity of being Baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. His response to me was, I was wrong and you do not need to be Baptized for salvation, “just believe”. Do you believe Baptism is necessary for Salvation?

[quote=Jimmy B]JMJ

Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

I had an interesting discussion with a “Born Again” friend of mine today. My friend use to be a Catholic, four marriages later, now he is a “Born Again” Christian. He believes in OSAS and that all you have to do for salvation is “just believe”. When I told him that “just believe” means to believe all if it, including among other things, the necessity of being Baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. His response to me was, I was wrong and you do not need to be Baptized for salvation, “just believe”. Do you believe Baptism is necessary for Salvation?
[/quote]

Who cares what I believe, Christ requires obedience, and the Church has infallibly declared that baptism in normatively necessary for salvation.

As a former “once saved, always saved” believer I feel great sorrow for those who have been hoodwinked by the OSAS lie. :crying: I pray that God will be merciful to them. :gopray2:

wasn,t the thief on the cross saved by his faith in jesus,as far as i know he wasn,t baptized.

The Church teaches pretty clearly the possibility of Baptism by desire. Having Jesus give you the promise of salvation in his own words is somewhat undisputable also. No one would condemn another for that very reason. No one knows the persons heart at the time of death. HOWEVER you would be expected to follow through sacramentally if/when you had the chance. Once you receive the Grace of Faith, you must follow what Christ taught.

[quote=azcelt]wasn,t the thief on the cross saved by his faith in jesus,as far as i know he wasn,t baptized.
[/quote]

[quote=azcelt]wasn,t the thief on the cross saved by his faith in jesus,as far as i know he wasn,t baptized.
[/quote]

Hello azcelt, thank you for your post.

JMJ

The Thief on the Cross was speaking to God, face to face. The Thief on the Cross has nothing to do with the requirement of Baptism. It has nothing to do with your salvation and everything to do with his own salvation (the Thief’s). We are all given free will and one soul. Salvation and Final Judgment applies to everyone according to his or her own life. You and I are not the Thief on the Cross. However, the Thief on the Cross story, like the story of Paul’s Conversion, show us that we all have hope through Jesus Christ.

The “Thief on the Cross” could be used, wrongly, as an argument against the necessity of obeying any of God’s Laws and just about anything you wanted it to. I’ve heard this argument before and it concerns me. I am worried for the lost souls who wrongly assume that they can do, or fail to do, what ever they want in life and there are no consequences for their actions. How convenient it would be if we didn’t have to be Baptized. How convenient it would be if we didn’t have to be married. Does the “Thief on the Cross” story mean that we don’t have to get married before sex and children? Does the “Thief on the Cross” story mean that we don’t have to obey Gods Laws? Does the “Thief on the Cross” story mean that we don’t have to avoid sin? No.

If Baptism wasn’t a requirement, then why was Jesus Baptized by John the Baptist? And His Father was pleased. Why did Jesus show us by His example and why did He instruct His Apostles to go to all the nations and Baptizes people if it were not what He wanted? Baptism is clearly a requirement if you have a chance to do so. It is through Baptism that one becomes a Catholic (Christian).

God Bless!

When baptism (of water) isn’t available then one only need baptism of desire

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[font=Times New Roman]Matthew****
Chapter 3

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.

14 John tried to prevent him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?”

15 Jesus said to him in reply, “Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed him.

16 After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him.

17 And a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Mark****
Chapter 1

9 It happened in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John.

10 On coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon him.

11 And a voice came from the heavens, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”

Luke****
Chapter 3

21 After all the people had been baptized and Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, heaven was opened

22 and the holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”
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****[font=Times New Roman][size=3]

[font=Times New Roman][size=3]
[font=Times New Roman][size=3]Mark[/size]

[/size]**[/size]****
Chapter 16

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned
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John****
Chapter 3

5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

John****
Chapter 4

1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John

2 (although Jesus himself was not baptizing, just his disciples), 2

3 he left Judea and returned to Galilee.

Colossians****
Chapter 2

12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Acts****
Chapter 16

15 After she and her household had been baptized, she offered us an invitation, “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my home,” and she prevailed on us.
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****CATECHISM OF THE ******CATHOLIC **CHURCH

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

How do you KNOW Dismas wasn’t baptized?

adstrinityHow do you KNOW Dismas wasn’t baptized?

That has always been one of my questions to Protestants - the answer, of course, is we don’t know. He knew who Jesus was, so one can easily speculate that he at some point was baptized (who’s to say?).

However, more importantly, the great commission to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…” John 28:19, and
"He who believes and was baptized will be saved…" Mark 16:16

were declared by Jesus after His resurrection, not before. The thief died before Jesus rose from the dead. Baptism as a necessity of salvation was not made the norm by Jesus until after His resurrection, so the whole “thief on the cross” argument is mute. He taught the apostles a lot in the 40 days before He ascended, and this was one of those things.

Just two more cents. God Bless:)
MBS1

[quote=MBS1]adstrinityHow do you KNOW Dismas wasn’t baptized?

That has always been one of my questions to Protestants - the answer, of course, is we don’t know. He knew who Jesus was, so one can easily speculate that he at some point was baptized (who’s to say?).

However, more importantly, the great commission to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…” John 28:19, and
"He who believes and was baptized will be saved…" Mark 16:16

were declared by Jesus after His resurrection, not before. The thief died before Jesus rose from the dead. Baptism as a necessity of salvation was not made the norm by Jesus until after His resurrection, so the whole “thief on the cross” argument is mute. He taught the apostles a lot in the 40 days before He ascended, and this was one of those things.

Just two more cents. God Bless:)
MBS1
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MBS1,
**[size=3]*Thanks for your post. I agree. You have a “typo”, it isn’t John 28:19 it is Matthew 28:19. Thanks again. [/size]
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[left][left][size=3][font=Times New Roman]**[size=3][font=Times New Roman]MATTHEW**[/size]

[/size][/size][/size]* 28:19-20

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."
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Ah- but which baptism.

Baptism by water, or baptism by the Holy Spirit- (which John the Baptist said Jesus would do.)

I don’t think we are equipped to answer this question, truthfully.

[quote=ScottH]Ah- but which baptism.

Baptism by water, or baptism by the Holy Spirit- (which John the Baptist said Jesus would do.)

I don’t think we are equipped to answer this question, truthfully.
[/quote]

Hi Scott, glad you could make it over from www.talkingtruth.org forums.

I think we need you to clarify what you consider “baptism by the Holy Spirit” for us. There are so many ideas and interpetations out there as to what this is and how this happens. Perhaps give us some scriptures that we can work with. If you are talking about “baptism by fire” I have some suggestions to make. But please claify the question for us. Thanks!

Jimmy B - thanks for the correction. Of course it was Matt.

"ScottHAh- but which baptism.

Baptism by water, or baptism by the Holy Spirit- (which John the Baptist said Jesus would do.)

I don’t think we are equipped to answer this question, truthfully."

Except that in both Matt 28 and Mark 16 the Greek word for baptism is *baptizo *which means (from www.crosswalk.com):

baptivzw from a derivative of (911)Transliterated Word**TDNT** Entry Baptizo1:529,92**Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechbap-tid’-zo bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif Definition
[list=1]
*]to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
*]to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
*]to overwhelm
[/list]
The same word is seen throughout scripture to mean water baptism. Even in 1 Pet when we see:

1Pe 3:21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The word for baptism here is baptisma, which means:

  1. immersion, submersion
    [list=1]
    *]of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed
    *]of John’s baptism, that purification rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah’s kingdom soon to be set up. This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost
    [/list]It seems clear (at least to me) that the verses in question are talking about water baptism.:yup: Now, we believe that there is grace given by the Holy Spirit at the time of baptism, so don’t confuse that the “baptizer” himself causes the grace. It is through the Lord alone that the forgiveness of sins and remission of original sin is given. Any thoughts?
    MBS1

Hi Max. I really don’t know how it works. I just know when it happened to me. Hope this makes sense. I call it “the point at which the light went on” where I accepted Christ.

This may not be an adequate, apologetic response like you were hoping for.

But for me, that point was about 30 years after my “Baptism by water”.

[quote=azcelt]wasn,t the thief on the cross saved by his faith in jesus,as far as i know he wasn,t baptized.
[/quote]

If you mean a water baptism, which you apparently do, then you are incorrect in saying that you know he wasn’t baptized - the bible simply doesn’t say. Therefore, the example is useless if you mean a water baptism.
Another form of baptism - the baptism of desire - is how most reconcile his situation to fit Catholic theology.

Phil

[quote=ScottH]Hi Max. I really don’t know how it works. I just know when it happened to me. Hope this makes sense. I call it “the point at which the light went on” where I accepted Christ.

This may not be an adequate, apologetic response like you were hoping for.

But for me, that point was about 30 years after my “Baptism by water”.
[/quote]

Hi Scott,

I am not disagreeing with you, but for the sake of fairness to those reading the posts scripture would be helpful for everyone here. This may be a new concept to some folks. I personally have had the experience myself and yes there was an increase in faith, power in prayer and focus. I would disagree that one is “saved” by this experience and I think to place your salvation in the context of a “powerful experience” is setting on up for failure. I think people have powerful experiences all the time that lead to re-conversions but they can not be our hope and anchor agree?

ScottH,
Please understand. Although one is born again through baptism, (Look at the early church, this is taught and understood that baptism=bornagain), one must continue to learn and grow in the faith of Christ.

And I also think when people say baptism by water, although correct, it does not fully describe the miracle that God is doing through the act.

AHHH! I can’t find it! But there is scripture, probably in Hebrews, that talks of baptism being like circumcision. Infants are circumcized.

So you can be born again, but walk away from Christ.
When you accepted who Christ was, ie, continued to grow and learn and love the Lord, you had a born again “experience”.

I was born again through baptism but it took 23 years for me to accept the grace that Christ had been trying to give me, when I had my born again experience in a Nazarene Church.

God Bless,
Maria

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