Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[quote=MariaG]ScottH,
Please understand. Although one is born again through baptism, (Look at the early church, this is taught and understood that baptism=bornagain), one must continue to learn and grow in the faith of Christ.

And I also think when people say baptism by water, although correct, it does not fully describe the miracle that God is doing through the act.

AHHH! I can’t find it! But there is scripture, probably in Hebrews, that talks of baptism being like circumcision. Infants are circumcized.

So you can be born again, but walk away from Christ.
When you accepted who Christ was, ie, continued to grow and learn and love the Lord, you had a born again “experience”.

I was born again through baptism but it took 23 years for me to accept the grace that Christ had been trying to give me, when I had my born again experience in a Nazarene Church.

God Bless,
Maria
[/quote]

Hi Maria,
Do you think this is when you were called ? ( after 23 years)
walk in love
edwinG

[quote=Philthy]If you mean a water baptism, which you apparently do, then you are incorrect in saying that you know he wasn’t baptized - the bible simply doesn’t say. Therefore, the example is useless if you mean a water baptism.
Another form of baptism - the baptism of desire - is how most reconcile his situation to fit Catholic theology.

Phil
[/quote]

If someone, through no fault of their own, either cannot be baptized or they do not know baptism is necessary, then they may be saved.

God chose to give us grace through the sacraments. Rejecting the sacraments is rejecting His grace.

[quote=Max Kolbe]Hi Scott,

I am not disagreeing with you, but for the sake of fairness to those reading the posts scripture would be helpful for everyone here. This may be a new concept to some folks. I personally have had the experience myself and yes there was an increase in faith, power in prayer and focus. I would disagree that one is “saved” by this experience and I think to place your salvation in the context of a “powerful experience” is setting on up for failure. I think people have powerful experiences all the time that lead to re-conversions but they can not be our hope and anchor agree?
[/quote]

I was one of the foremost opponents of Christianity (and religion in general). I was a pure naturalist- often seeking out debate with Christians weak in Genesis. I figured- if evolution is true, what do we need to be saved from? We are “advancing” high-apes.

I was a seller of internet porn, a guy that hung out in stripclubs, and all kinds of unsavory things that go along with all of that. I met a Christian through my job that is a teacher of Creation apologetics. We fought and argued for months. Suddenly it hit me. God is real. Christ is real. What the heck have I been doing?

This was three years ago. I now help teach creation apologetics. I’m a non-denominational Christian that worships at a Presbyterian Church. The old me has been renewed. I’m not that person anymore. I now try to help those with the same problems I had.

For whatever that’s worth.

[quote=MariaG]ScottH,
Please understand. Although one is born again through baptism, (Look at the early church, this is taught and understood that baptism=bornagain), one must continue to learn and grow in the faith of Christ.

And I also think when people say baptism by water, although correct, it does not fully describe the miracle that God is doing through the act.

AHHH! I can’t find it! But there is scripture, probably in Hebrews, that talks of baptism being like circumcision. Infants are circumcized.

So you can be born again, but walk away from Christ.
When you accepted who Christ was, ie, continued to grow and learn and love the Lord, you had a born again “experience”.

I was born again through baptism but it took 23 years for me to accept the grace that Christ had been trying to give me, when I had my born again experience in a Nazarene Church.

God Bless,
Maria
[/quote]

Hi Maria,
Just me again wanting to add something further.From my experience I too am left wondering. There seems to be a period of grace when we are under protection but left on a long leash and even though we sin and sin continually we are constantly being loved but without any onus to obey in a knowing fashion. But then after we are called and at this stage, we still wander around but the leash is continually being shortened. So an example in my life is that I did not forsake all of my habitual and addictive sins at once but by constant paring. Christ’s yoke is very gentle.
Walk in love
edwinG

Hello Jimmy B.

Pope John Paul II indicates to us that he, and Vatican II, believe that conversion and baptism are not nessessary for salvation. What do you think of his belief?

The following is a quote of Pope John Paul II’s statement in English to those gathered in St. Peter’s square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000, in which he briefly summarized his message of the day, “FOR US, THE KINGDOM IS GRACE”:

“Dear brothers and sisters, the theme of Our general audience during this great Jubilee year, has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world and should be a source of serenity and confidence to our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. In the Lord’s prayer we say ‘Thy kingdom come’. May this be the hope that sustains us and inspires our Christian life and world.”

We confess with the Apostle Paul “that there is salvation in no other name” (Acts 4:12). The “Dominus Iesus” declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him (see “Dominus Iesus,” VI, 20-21). The document clarifies the essential Christian elements, which do not obstruct the dialogue, but show its basis, because a dialogue without foundations would be destined to degenerate into empty verbosity.

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples,

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

"The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are ‘reborn of water and the Spirit.’ God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. ‘Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.’ Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity." (CCC, 1257-1260)

[quote=Steven Merten]Hello Jimmy B.

Pope John Paul II indicates to us that he, and Vatican II, believe that conversion and baptism are not nessessary for salvation. What do you think of his belief?

The following is a quote of Pope John Paul II’s statement in English to those gathered in St. Peter’s square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000, in which he briefly summarized his message of the day, “FOR US, THE KINGDOM IS GRACE”:

“Dear brothers and sisters, the theme of Our general audience during this great Jubilee year, has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world and should be a source of serenity and confidence to our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. In the Lord’s prayer we say ‘Thy kingdom come’. May this be the hope that sustains us and inspires our Christian life and world.”

We confess with the Apostle Paul “that there is salvation in no other name” (Acts 4:12). The “Dominus Iesus” declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him (see “Dominus Iesus,” VI, 20-21). The document clarifies the essential Christian elements, which do not obstruct the dialogue, but show its basis, because a dialogue without foundations would be destined to degenerate into empty verbosity.

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples,

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten

www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
[/quote]

Steven Merten,

I fully surrender to Jesus Christ and his church, the Catholic Church. I agree fully with the teachings of the Vicar of Christ, our holy father. I also follow the Catechism of the Catholic Church, so if you are looking for my answer, you will find it there.

Steven Merten,

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Chapter 1****
**20 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, **
21 for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God

2 Peter****
Chapter 3****
**16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. **
17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.

2 Timothy
Chapter 3****
**16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, **
17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work

John****
Chapter 1
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. these also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd
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Thanks for your post.

Hello Jimmy,

So what do faithful Catholics do when Vatican II and modern Popes speak opposite of excathadra Church teachings? Pope Eugene tells us excathadra that pagans can never be partakers in eternal life. Pope John Paul II tells us that as long as pagans sincerely practice what is good in their own pagan religion they can go to heaven through Jesus even though they do not recognize Jesus as their Saviour or are baptized. Who do faithful Catholics follow? Vatican II or pre-Vatican II?

Pope Eugene IV, (Bull Cantate Domino, 1441) “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope John Paul II

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples,

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

Scotth wrote:

I was a seller of internet porn, a guy that hung out in stripclubs, and all kinds of unsavory things that go along with all of that. I met a Christian through my job that is a teacher of Creation apologetics. We fought and argued for months. Suddenly it hit me. God is real. Christ is real. What the heck have I been doing?

This was three years ago. I now help teach creation apologetics. I’m a non-denominational Christian that worships at a Presbyterian Church. The old me has been renewed. I’m not that person anymore. I now try to help those with the same problems I had.


Scott, I must commend you for being on your journey. I, myself, overcame a sinful path and I know how hard that is - I am cradle Catholic and I was sure my Church would no longer want me. Boy, how quickly I forgot all those parts about mercy, love and forgiveness.

I think the question in the poll is easy because not only does the Holy Scripture speak to the necessity of baptism but our Catechism does also. Baptism does not have to be by water, but it always has to be in the name of the Trinity.

From what I understand, some religions do not baptize in the name of the Trinity because they do not believe in the divinity of Christ. I am not as knowledgeable as I’d like to be in this area, and so cannot really comment on it. I think it is wonderfully inclusive of the Church to address the issue of baptism in the manner it does and I would urge you all to read the Catechism in order to refresh your knowledge on the subject.

God is perfectly able to handle all of the problems of accidental death and heis able to handle defiance

[quote=Steven Merten]Pope Eugene IV, (Bull Cantate Domino, 1441) “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
[/quote]

“Unless before death they are joined with her” is the key phrase. These people can be joined to the Church without knowing it. If they are pagans, Jews, protestants, etc. through no fault of their own, they may be saved through the Church.

posted by EdwinG
Hi Maria,
Do you think this is when you were called ? ( after 23 years)
walk in love
edwinG

Hi Maria,
Just me again wanting to add something further.From my experience I too am left wondering. There seems to be a period of grace when we are under protection but left on a long leash and even though we sin and sin continually we are constantly being loved but without any onus to obey in a knowing fashion. But then after we are called and at this stage, we still wander around but the leash is continually being shortened. So an example in my life is that I did not forsake all of my habitual and addictive sins at once but by constant paring. Christ’s yoke is very gentle.
Walk in love
edwinG

I am glad you expanded. Because my original answer would have been no that was not when God called to me, but when I responded with my whole heart.

**But your second expanded version is exactly what happened and how I would describe it! My leash was being shortened, He wanted me to Know Him. **

I will share my story.

I had been talking to various friends about God. I was not going to any church and had not since I briefly went at age 15.

I was feeling God calling me, but kind of put “the whole church thing” off.

One day I was driving and missed my turn. I had to drive around the block, complaining the whole time. My drive around the block brought me straight in front of a Nazarene Church. As surely as I hear my children speak to me, I heard God tell me, “You be in Church this Sunday or I am leaving you forever.” The pastor of the Church told everyone he had a different sermon planned for today, but God told him to give his saving grace sermon instead because there was someone that was going to be here that needed to hear it. I heard it. I responded.

And yes, I agree, we are works in progress.

God Bless,
Maria

[quote=Steven Merten]Hello Jimmy,

So what do faithful Catholics do when Vatican II and modern Popes speak opposite of excathadra Church teachings? …

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
[/quote]

Steven,

My answers to your questions can all be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, A Catholic Study Bible, the Magisterium and writings of Popes, early Church leaders, qualified apologist and Doctors of the Church.

Like I said, I fully and completely surrender to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His Church, the Holy Catholic Church.

Most of what you are looking for, regarding Baptism and Salvation are addressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

scborromeo.org/ccc/index/a.htm

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18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
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jimmy b,I,m not arguing against baptism,i thank god for my baptism every morning before i pray,i know that original sin was erased from me by my baptism.i also know that i should turn to the cross every day and remember that my sins put jesus on that cross,being a christian is a lifelong process striving to meet the reqirements of the law(10 commandments)but knowing that thru baptism and faith in my savior,s sacrifice on the cross,repentance,and following the golden rule,the savior will bring me home in the end.go well,celt

[quote=azcelt]jimmy b,I,m not arguing against baptism,i thank god for my baptism every morning before i pray,i know that original sin was erased from me by my baptism.i also know that i should turn to the cross every day and remember that my sins put jesus on that cross,being a christian is a lifelong process striving to meet the reqirements of the law(10 commandments)but knowing that thru baptism and faith in my savior,s sacrifice on the cross,repentance,and following the golden rule,the savior will bring me home in the end.go well,celt
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Thank you for your post azcelt. Very well put. God Bless!

you gotta get’em wet…

http://www.superchevyshow.com/images/2004%20Norwalk%20web%20photos/Mr.%20Gasket%20Crew%20Dunking.jpg

There are exceptions for those who never had a chance ie babies who die at birth or are killed by abortion.

First off, I would direct your friend to James 2:14-17:

“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.”

As to the unborn or those unfortunate to not recieve baptism of water, there is still the baptism of blood (martyrs) and the baptism of desire.

I would say that considering we believe that people of all faiths…non Christian alike can be saved if they have not been informed, then I would say no…it isn’t a requirement…what about aborted babies, etc.

[quote=Jimmy B]JMJ

Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

I had an interesting discussion with a “Born Again” friend of mine today. My friend use to be a Catholic, four marriages later, now he is a “Born Again” Christian. He believes in OSAS and that all you have to do for salvation is “just believe”. When I told him that “just believe” means to believe all if it, including among other things, the necessity of being Baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. His response to me was, I was wrong and you do not need to be Baptized for salvation, “just believe”. Do you believe Baptism is necessary for Salvation?
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