Is Catholic Charismatic church autonomous or autocephalous?


#1

Like the title says


#2

Neither.


#3

My communion (see sig) is autocephalous, although as David says, Rome so far does not recognize us as such. We have been within a hairsbreadth on more than one occasion of being accepted as an autonomous church by Rome.

Here’s to eventual unity, may it be in my lifetime. :thumbsup:

Peace,
+N


#4

Your signature is what led me to ask this question. If your church can appoint its own bishops, how can you still claim apostolic succession? It seems to me that the first time your church elected its own bishop the chain was broken. What am I missing?


#5

It wont happen unless you are prepared to acknowledge the Pope as the vicar of Christ in the sea of Peter possessing the authority ordained by Christ. I went to the link from this post and this Catholic Charismatic Church does not appear to be in communion with the Pope. As such they are, as the Church would say, separated brethren who lack the fullness of Truth contained in the body of Christ, the Church.


#6

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal falls under the umbrella of the Roman Catholic Church.


#7

This is correct, however, this thread is about the Catholic Charismatic CHURCH, a wholly different topic than the Catholic Charismatic RENEWAL.


#8

I am only familiar with the Renewal, not a Catholic Charismatic Church.


#9

Let me preface my replies with this disclaimer:
In discussions of this sort sometimes it is difficult to discern whether or not another person’s reply may be influenced by heightened emotions. I am always prepared to discuss anything dispassionately and if anything I say might be taken as benign or overtly offensive, I always mean it in the non-offensive manner. That being said:

For you as RC the answer is simple, Rome says we have valid Apostolic Succession. Other than that you’ll have to be more specific.

Peace,
+N


#10

Or…Rome could abandon the unfounded novelty of Primacy of Jurisdiction. Just a thought :smiley:

I went to the link from this post and this Catholic Charismatic Church does not appear to be in communion with the Pope.

You are correct, the stubborn fellow refuses to make his submission to us… :smiley:

As such they are, as the Church would say, separated brethren who lack the fullness of Truth contained in the body of Christ, the Church.

That’s only valid if the Petrine Primacy as defined by Rome actually exists, which it doesn’t.

Peace,
+N


#11

We’re looking at this from a Catholic perspective. Charismatic Catholic Church are like Old Catholics, Liberal Catholic Church International, PNCC, etc. At least from what I can gather.


#12

I am unable to find any documentation that supports this.

Are your ordinations valid in the same way that Marcel Lefebvre was?

This excerpt is from a 2001 article about Lefebvre’s followers:

The Pope has entrusted the commission with the care of those faithful of the Priestly Society of St. Pius X, founded by Bishop Lefebvre, who wish to return to full communion with Rome.

The rupture took place June 30, 1988, when Bishop Lefebvre ordained four bishops without papal approval. The French bishop had rejected the Second Vatican Council's liturgical reform, and the legitimacy of interreligious dialogue. In 1986 he denounced John Paul's visit to Rome's synagogue as a scandal "without measure or precedent." Bishop Lefebvre died in 1991. 

On July 2, 1988, the Pope wrote the apostolic letter "Ecclesia Dei," in which he specifically referred to the episcopal ordination: "Hence such disobedience -- which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy -- constitutes a schismatic act" (No. 3). 

I am not trying to bash here, I’m just curious where my understanding is wrong.


#13

A fairly accurate summary.

Peace,
+N


#14

They claim valid Apostolic succession, but don’t document or demonstrate it.


#15

Dominus Iesus says:

[FONT=Times]17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.[/FONT]

Are your ordinations valid in the same way that Marcel Lefebvre was?

In some ways yes. While Lefebvre was directly connected to Rome and then separated himself, our lines of succession come mostly from Churches which have not been in communion with Rome since before the Great Schism. Though we do have lines going back to Rome as well.

I am not trying to bash here, I’m just curious where my understanding is wrong.

No offense taken my friend. :slight_smile:

Peace,
+N


#16

Don’t be silly, we have the documents, if we didn’t I would not be associated.

How would you have us demonstrate it? I would be happy to say Mass for you. :wink:

Peace,
+N


#17

The usual quotes and links will be just fine.


#18

You mean for demonstration purposes? If so, you may need to hang out for a while. I don’t think anyone has ever made a list of our lines available in electronic format. I could probably sweet talk my wife into doing it though. Let me see and I’ll get back to you. And if you’re seriously interested in knowing you may have to remind me. I have 7 children. :smiley:

Peace,
+N


#19

[quote=frnate]You mean for demonstration purposes?
[/quote]

Yes, quotes with links are for demonstration purposes.

[quote=frnate] I don’t think anyone has ever made a list of our lines available in electronic format.
[/quote]

OK. I understand. When are you going to start this undertaking? That would make electronic dialogue very much easier, do you not agree?

[quote=frnate] I could probably sweet talk my wife into doing it though. Let me see and I’ll get back to you.
[/quote]

Righteo.

[quote=frnate] And if you’re seriously interested in knowing you may have to remind me. I have 7 children. :smiley:
[/quote]

We’ve made the request. The ball’s in your court. It takes about a week to put up a basic website. Quite a bit more to add onto the basic pages. But that is what I recommend you do at this stage.


#20

Feel free to peruse two sites (such as they are.) This should give you an idea about us.

holyccc.org (Unofficial, created and maintained by me I might add)
and
mysite.verizon.net/M-boyle/CCChurch.html (Official)

In the past I have not published a list of our lines because of the tendency of groups similar to ours to depend too heavily on their lines to add legitimacy to their communions. I have never felt that need and thought of it as a little disingenuous. I will be happy to do so for you though if you really are interested. Well, I guess even if aren’t really interested now. :stuck_out_tongue:

Peace,
+N


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