Is Catholicsm and Islam compatible?


#130

It’s a simple question. You’re simply getting upset because you can’t support your statement with facts.

No it is not possible that the Church could be wrong. This is not something that falls into the category of being open to debate or question.

It does, actually. The Catholic Church is infallible when Teaching the Deposit of Faith. Those Teachings which Jesus Christ Taught and commanded to be passed down.

Since when is the Catholic Church infallible in the doctrines of Mohammed?


#131

Is it possible to determine what God the Muslims worship INDEPENDENTLY of what the Muslims say about that God?

I am having a difficult time seeing how that could be done, and what logical disconnect must be appealed to in order to make the two questions independent of (i.e., “not the same thing as”) each other.

Your claim amounts to: It doesn’t matter what the Muslims say about the God they worship, we just know (somehow, by some independent means) that they do, in fact, worship the same God as Christians. We just disregard what they say about God when what they say conflicts with our view of God.

Yes, you have provided some historical basis – Abraham as the father of Ishmael – to support your claim. However, the Muslim view (and this is inconsistent depending upon which text is cited) is that Scripture has been corrupted, so it is possible that some or, even, many Muslims don’t agree that it is the same God.


#132

Reverse the Christian-Jewish comparison and look at it that way.

If a Jewish believer were to look at our ideas of the Trinity and the Incarnation, he could rightly say that the Christian God is unrecognizable, even blasphemous, to Judaism, and (by the same standards applied to Islam in this thread) could insist that we worship a very different God.

Yet we have a historical connection. Christianity started as a Jewish movement, and our Scriptures and teachings build on theirs. So we can say, just as the Church says about Muslims, that even though we believe very different, even incompatible, things about God’s nature and activities, we are at least trying to talk about the same entity.

Now, we don’t believe that Islam is a revealed religion. (Then again, the Jews presumably don’t believe that God revealed Christianity, either.) And it doesn’t have a direct historical descent from Judaism or Christianity. But it’s obvious that Muhammad’s theology was assembled from bits and pieces of Jewish and Christian belief, including people and stories from both sets of Scriptures (albeit with some changes). So, just as our Trinity is supposed to be the same entity as Israel’s God, despite great differences in description, Allah of Islam is clearly supposed to be the God that spoke to Abraham and sent Jesus. Muslims aren’t just generically monotheistic; they are trying to talk about the same God as Judaism and Christianity.

Now, what does it mean that the Church acknowledges that historical connection? It means that Islam has certain commonalities with us in its understanding of God. It’s far from a perfect match, just as it isn’t with Judaism, but the three “Abrahamic” religions are closer to each other than any of them are to Hinduism or Buddhism, which have no historical connection to the Abrahamic group. That should inform our approach to dialogue and evangelization with members of different religions. We can start from what we have in common. With other Christians, we have Jesus and many of the same stories and teachings. With Judaism and Islam, we have the One God of Abraham and some stories and beliefs. And so forth.

And that’s pretty much all the Church is saying. She is notably not saying that Islam is a revealed religion, or that it is correct in its picture of God and Jesus, or that its worship is pleasing to God (other than that He is pleased by any striving toward goodness and truth), or that its moral and social teachings are good where they depart from ours, or that we have to accept that Abraham offered both Isaac and Ishmael in sacrifice. Only, only, that Islam is a close relative aimed at the true God (however poorly), and can be approached from that standpoint.


#133

Yes. It is.

Just as it is possible to determine who is the current President of the United States without asking “what do people say or think about him?”

If you want to know who he is, go to the White House, open the door and look (ok, it’s not that simple with security, but the point stands).
The fact that different people have different opinions of him does not cause him to become multiple persons.

Look here. This is simple common sense. A five year old can understand it.

Just because 2 or more people say things about a person that conflict with each other, that does NOT mean that the person splits and becomes 2 or more people. Again, any five year old can understand this.

All you keep doing, every single time you post, is to repeat the fallacy that if different people say different things, then the God is multiplied.

Obviously simple logic isn’t going to work, so I have to try a different approach:

Do some research already. Look into this. Don’t just sit back and say “I don’t like what Moslems today preach, therefore they can’t believe in the God of Abraham” which is, after all, exactly what you’re doing.

Look into actual reliable sources—not fear mongering, not ignorant babbling on personal internet blogs, not some idiot on the internet quoting hate speech from 1,000 years ago.

Look at the Vatican’s own website, specifically the Pontifical Commission for Inter Religious Dialogue. See what they have to say about this topic. Note how the word “God” is ALWAYS used in the singular. Note how there is never any talk about “the God of Islam compared to the God of Christianity.”

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/index.htm

Do you really think that the Holy See itself misunderstands the situation; they they’re wrong about Islam and you know better?

Read the documents of the dialogue between Catholics and Muslims. Actually read them. Take the time to educate yourself on the subject rather than just making rash and unfounded assumptions. Is that too much to ask?
Read the documents and notice that both sides always speak about that ONE God. Both sides do not merely acknowledge but take as a given that we worship the same God of Abraham.

Anyone who knows even basic facts about Islam (facts, not just hate-filled polemics) knows that Islam regards Jews and Christians as “People of the Book” who are considered to have a different status than other religions—exactly because Islam claims that Christians and Moslems worship the same God.

No Muslim would ever dare deny that his God is the same God as the Christians and the same God as the Jews because that would be going against the very core beliefs of the Koran.

Try actually learning something about the subject before claiming that the people who DO know it are wrong. Please.


#134

Hi, Joe!

Exactly!

We can’t have it both ways… either we Believe or we stand against a Belief.

The problem people have is that they seek to mesh everything into a compilation of “truths” or ‘all roads lead’ philosophy.

It is akin to ‘we are all God’s children.’ There’s truth to that… but only on a technical (if you will) merit.

However, it is fully correct (and true) that we are all God’s Creation; hence we have all given the same dignity of Life by God–Who Calls us, not in our own individual ways, in to Himself.

Maran atha!

Angel


#135

Hi!

I also understand these deviations… what the Church proposes is not that there are different God’s but that all three religions (Catholic, Judaism, Islam) purport to serve one monotheistic God.

All three religious bodies have a common point in that very explicit and singular value of Yahweh God (the one True and Only God).

Yet, the three religious bodies are not the same as their understanding of God’s Revelation differ irreconcilably, as you’ve noted.

There’s so much going on (even from Catholics pulpits where progressives want to instill the ‘all roads lead’ principle) that it is understandable that people (Catholic and non-Catholics) may be struggling with queries such as the OP’s.

Maran atha!

Angel


#136

It is only confusing to the Muslims who do not understand Yahweh God’s Revelation.

Maran atha!

Angel


#137

Can you expand on your statement?

Maran atha!

Angel


#138

Hi!

I think that you have hit it (though kind of wrongly) on the head… Christianity is not a Jewish “movement.” Christianity is a New Covenant Revelation by Yahweh God: ‘I will Call those who were not my People, my People.’

The Immanuel (God-with-us) kept His Promise to Israel as He Visited His Temple; His New Covenant Revelation, as the Messiah/Suffering Servant, brought the new economy which Israel were not to be a part of so that all other peoples/nations in the world could be spliced into the Natural Root (Root of David–Romans 9:1 through 11:32).

However, man has always been determined to create his own definition of God’s Revelation (Ishmael vs. Isaac and the various religious agencies that have risen throughout the centuries).

The problem we will continue to have is man’s desire to make God’s Revelation according to his own personal whim (thousands upon thousands of theologies dead and active till today).

Maran atha!

Angel


#139

Hi!

I must disagree. Judaism, Islam, and Catholicism each have a different understand of Yahweh God… so we must apply not the “feel good” theology but the Revelation made by Yahweh God Himself:

6 And again, when Hashem brings HaBechor into the Olam Hazeh, He says, “Let all Hashem’s malachim worship him.” [DEVARIM 32:43 TARGUM HA-SHIVIM] 7 And of the malachim, Hashem says OSEH MALAKHAV RUCHOT MESHARTAV EISH L’HET (“He makes his angels winds and his servants [ministering angels] flaming fire,” TEHILLIM 104:4). 8 And Hashem says to HaBen, KIS’AHCHA ELOHIM OLAM VAED SHEVET MISHOR SHEVET MALKHUTECHA (“Your throne, O G-d, will endure for ever and ever, and the scepter of justice is the scepter of your kingdom”‖TEHILLIM 45:7).
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
(Hebrews 1)

This distinction about Jesus’ Divinity does not escape His Apostles:

22 Who is the shakran (liar)? Who but the one making hakhchashah (denial) and claiming that Yehoshua is not the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach? This one is the Anti-Moshiach, the one making hakhchashah (denial) of HaAv and HaBen. 23 No one making hakhchashah of HaBen has HaAv; the one making hoda’ah (confession) of HaBen has HaAv also. 24 What you heard from the beginning, in you let it make its maon. If in you makes maon what from the beginning you heard, also you will make maon in HaBen and in HaAv. 25 And this is the havtachah (promise) which He promised us, Chayyei Olam.
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
(1 St. John 2)

Maran atha!

Angel


#140

Same old. Same old.

I am not talking “feel good theology” so don’t even think about going there.

I am stating a simple fact. One that no one who actually understands the subject disputes.

Just like the previous posters, you make the same logical error of confusing the 2 questions

  1. What God?
  2. What do they say about that God?

#141

No.

You ask a Muslim/Jewish in the streets of NYC or any other place do you believe in God… and he/she will bring you to their definition of God–this definition of God rejects Christ’s Divinity.

We cannot reject Christ and claim to be Worshiping in the same way the One True God.

Maran atha!

Angel


#142

Same logical error.

No matter how many times you repeat it, it’s still a logical error.


#143

It is not a logical error.

Rather it is reality.

Just look at this Scriptural passage:

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. (1 St. John 1)

While all three religious bodies have a common Belief in the One True God, their understanding varies to the point of making this fact quite insignificant.

Yes, it can be a point of reference for building communications… but no, the competing understanding cannot gain a commonality that would make these three bodies compatible–unless it is predicated on the non-Catholic Christian contention of “unity” (‘lets not even mention our disparities, let’s just talk about issues that unite us [ie: like our dislike for everything Catholic]’).

Maran atha!

Angel


#144

Except, with regard to God, there isn’t a White House where you can go and open a door and check out for yourself what the God of Islam is like. The very definition of “God” as defined in both Christianity and Islam is characterized within a set of beliefs or creeds.

Thus the Nicene Creed characterizes God as…

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made…

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified…

There is nowhere to go to confirm whether or not these words actually characterize God. They are statements of belief about God and define the nature of the God believed in by Christians as a result of God’s self-revelation to mankind in the Old and New Testaments, revelation, the study of theology proper and natural theology.

Continued…


#145

There is in Islam a completely different view of Allah. Allah does not reveal himself, he only reveals his will. Thus, for Muslims, God is completely unknown and unknowable.

Al-Ghazali, arguably the most influential theologian of Islam, wrote: "The end result of the knowledge of the `arifin is their inability to know Him, and their knowledge is, in truth, that they do not know Him and that it is absolutely impossible for them to know Him."

Fadlou Shehadi, a contemporary Al-Ghazali, drew a similar conclusion: "God is Utterly Unknowable."

Isma`il al-Faruqi is inline with mainstream Islamic thinking when he writes:

He [God] does not reveal Himself to anyone in any way. God reveals only His will. Remember one of the prophets asked God to reveal Himself and God told him, "No, it is not possible for Me to reveal Myself to anyone. "…This is God’s will and that is all we have, and we have it in perfection in the Qur’an. But Islam does not equate the Qur’an with the nature or essence of God. It is the Word of God, the Commandment of God, the Will of God. But God does not reveal Himself to anyone. Christians talk about the revelation of God Himself - by God of God - but that is the great difference between Christianity and Islam. God is transcendent, and once you talk about self-revelation you have hierophancy and immanence, and then the transcendence of God is compromised. You may not have complete transcendence and self-revelation at the same time.

So contrary to your “go look in the White House” analogy of what God is like, there is no way, in Islam, of knowing anything whatsoever about God.

So unlike the president, there is no way to verify what God is like by any independent means whatsoever. The nature of God is precisely what people believe about him. As far as Islam is concerned, there is no knowing God whatsoever. As far as Christianity is concerned, the nature of God is defined in the Creeds, in the beliefs about God.

So my point stands…

It is NOT possible to determine what the God the Muslims worship is like, INDEPENDENTLY of what Muslims say about that God. And, similarly, determinations about the nature of the Christian God are made within Creeds or statements of belief about God. There are no other methods to determine the nature of God – no White House or Mt. Olympus, or anywhere else.

Source: http://www.answering-islam.org/God/character.html


#146

On the contrary, the logical error is yours. And it is not a simple fact. It is not a fact at all. It is merely an Islamic claim which contradicts the facts.

First of all, when we ask the first question:

  1. What God? We worship the God of the Bible. Old and New Testament. They worship the God of the Quran. They claim they worship the God of the Old and New Testament, but they claim that our Old and New Testament are corrupt. They claim that the Quran corrected the Old and New Testament and produced the true gospel.

  2. What do they say about God? They say many different things about Allah which make Him totally incompatible to the God of love that we worship. They believe that Allah condemns people to hell from their conception. They believe that He does whatever He wants, good or evil, whenever He wants. They ridicule the idea that God is love.

Your assumptions are these:

  1. That Mohammed had a true revelation. That is the only way that we could be worshipping the same God. If Mohammed had a true revelation from the True God and misunderstood the contents of that revelation.

But no Christian has ever said he had a true revelation from God. In fact, those that do, claim it was demonic.

  1. You assume that claiming or wanting to worship the same God means that they actually do worship the same God. But it doesn’t. And this can be corroborated with Scripture.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

If it is true, as some claim, that Mohammed had a supernatural revelation, but it was really a demon, then he actually started a religion to worship Satan masquerading as God.

So, it is not necessarily true that Islam worships the God of the Bible. They may claim that they do, but the majority of the evidence is to the contrary.


#147

[quote=“FrDavid96, post:129, topic:454864, full:true”]

I am not against you personally or the Church. I go along with the Church’s stance on Muslims but honestly I find this argument is very weak.

Basically, it is on the Church’s say so.

Correct me if my summary is wrong on the explanation so far:

  1. Muslims are spirtual descendants Ishmael.
  2. Since Ishmael worhsiped the God of his father, Abraham, therefore Muslims worship that God.
  3. (Implication) - Muhammad many centuries later, claimed to be Ishmael descendant and therefore worshiped his God but with different ways and understanding of that God.

I hope you see the weaknesses in this argument which is essentially a Church derivation. Nobody has yet said the proclaimation iis nfallible, so I guess it is still open for discussion, not that the Church will change this stance, of course.

As I said earlier, Muhammad being the descendant of Ishmael, is just a claim. Even if it is true, there is no way to verify that he still believed in what Ishmael believed - the gap/interruption of probably about two thousand years of not perpetuating Ishmael religion; and now Muhammad’s revelations are full of contradiction and errors as compared to what we know from the old Scripture, just does not make his claim credible at all.

Your argument would necessitate for the Church to agree to anyone after Muhammad, if they should make similar claim and introduce new religions.


#148

A claim which has been thoroughly debunked.


#149

Again, you repeat the same logical fallacy / error.

You confuse the 2 questions. What God? with What does one say about God?

Same thing. Nothing new.

Still fallacy.


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